What did Beethoven mean ?

[Rod]

Originally posted by robert newman:

I honestly believe these things do matter. They matter because Beethoven chose them and did not choose others. He had reasons. My final post on this issue of the Turkish music is as follows...

You're reading too much into the 'Turkish' element, it is the instruments that were classed as Turkish, the March itself without them is just a March! Beethoven had used these instruments before for celebratory music as I'm sure did others, and why not? It produces the ideal effect, on aesthetic grounds alone.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-17-2006).]

[Joy]

Here's something I found on the definition of "Turkish" music "was always lively in tempo, and is almost always a kind of march.

When "Turkish" music was scored for orchestra, it normally used extra percussion instruments not otherwise found in orchestras of the Classical period: typically, the bass drum, the triangle, and cymbals. These instruments really were used by the Turks in their military music so at least the instrumentation of "Turkish" music was authentic. Often there is also a piccolo.

It seems that at least part of the entertainment value of "Turkish" music was its perceived exoticness. The Turks were well known to the citizens of Vienna as military opponents, and indeed the centuries of warfare between Austria and Turkey had only started going consistently in Austria's favor around the late 1600's. The differences in culture, as well as the frisson derived from the many earlier Turkish invasions, apparently gave rise to a fascination among the Viennese for all things Turkish."


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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Marek Krukowski]

Originally posted by Rod:
You're reading too much into the 'Turkish' element,

Of course. Haydn's Symphony No. 100 wich use this kind of instrumentation is known as "Military" not as "Turkish".

I welcome everybody here!

Marek

[This message has been edited by Marek Krukowski (edited 08-17-2006).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Marek Krukowski:
Of course. Haydn's Symphony No. 100 wich use this kind of instrumentation is known as "Military" not as "Turkish".

I welcome everybody here!

Marek

Yes welcome Marek - quite right, that wonderful Haydn symphony completely slipped my mind in this context.



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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Joy:
Here's something I found on the definition of "Turkish" music "was always lively in tempo, and is almost always a kind of march.

When "Turkish" music was scored for orchestra, it normally used extra percussion instruments not otherwise found in orchestras of the Classical period: typically, the bass drum, the triangle, and cymbals. These instruments really were used by the Turks in their military music so at least the instrumentation of "Turkish" music was authentic. Often there is also a piccolo.

It seems that at least part of the entertainment value of "Turkish" music was its perceived exoticness. The Turks were well known to the citizens of Vienna as military opponents, and indeed the centuries of warfare between Austria and Turkey had only started going consistently in Austria's favor around the late 1600's. The differences in culture, as well as the frisson derived from the many earlier Turkish invasions, apparently gave rise to a fascination among the Viennese for all things Turkish."

Of course it was fashionable at the time, but Robert is suggesting some political motive to Beethoven's use of this style in the Ode to Joy. I suggest the instruments just fitted the bill for Beethoven and nothing more, remember he uses them again at the end of the movement.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-17-2006).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Of course it was fashionable at the time, but Robert is suggesting some political motive to Beethoven's use of this style in the Ode to Joy.

Robert would!

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'Man know thyself'

[robert newman]

Yes Peter, absolutely ! I am suggesting a political statement here by Beethoven. But also an attempt to move in to a new sort of musical tonality. Both these things. And he used the Turkish music to do both things.

The political part is simple enough. Beethoven had made a political statement years before in the 'Eroica'. He was political in music for the 'Ruins of Athens'. In'Fidelio'. And in various other public works.

Mention has been made of the instruments most often associated with 'Turkish' music. If we list them again -

Cymbal, Bass Drum, Triangle, Piccolo.

From an acoustic point of view all of these instruments are very interesting.

In W. Piston's 'Orchestration' he mentions that cymbals are really Turkish in origin 'the normal single note stroke of playing them is a two plate stroke, the clashing of the two cymbals together with swinging, brushing movements, not a direct face to face blow' He also mentions, interestingly, that 'a loud two plate stroke will cause the cymbals to sound for an astonishing length of time if they are held in the air'.

Of the triangle he writes, 'The tone of the triangle is high, clear and luminous, adding brilliance, sparkle and gaiety to the orchestral colour. It is most penetrating and can be heard in the loudest tutti'. Importantly, he adds, 'the triangle is an instrument of indefinite pitch (although some modern triangles give a definite pitch). But it will sound like upper partials of whatever fundamental harmony it accompanies.

Of the bass drum - 'the carrying power of this instrument is greater than any other in the whole orchestra'. Again - 'while it is an instrument of indefinite pitch it frequently gives the illusion of sounding the fundamental note of harmonic groupings played by higher instruments'.

Of the piccolo - 'the piccolo strengthens the upper partials of the harmony'.

The 'Turkish' use of these instruments (as we hear them in the finale of Beethoven's 9th symphony) may be the 'other tones' that he, the composer, was talking about.

But, again, I agree that the text is capable of various interpretations and I do respect the views of others.

[Sorrano]

And, Beethoven was highly opinionated in regards to the politics of his day. Why not a hidden message?

[Rod]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
And, Beethoven was highly opinionated in regards to the politics of his day. Why not a hidden message?

He used Turkish instuments in the finale of the pro-Establishment cantata 'The Glorious Moment' in 1814, what's the hidden message there?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
And, Beethoven was highly opinionated in regards to the politics of his day. Why not a hidden message?

If it is so blatantly obvious a matter of Turkish instruments, it is hardly a hidden message! Or perhaps Beethoven considered the authorities tone deaf!



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'Man know thyself'

[Marek Krukowski]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
And, Beethoven was highly opinionated in regards to the politics of his day. Why not a hidden message?

But why a hidden message?

Marek

[Athea]

This is just a speculation and I doubt whether we can find suitable reply. Only Beethoven himself could it clear up.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Athea:
This is just a speculation and I doubt whether we can find suitable reply. Only Beethoven himself could it clear up.

..and because it is pure speculation there is nothing to clear up. Who of us would be brave enough to ask Beethoven if we could go back in time? He'd probably explode with laughter.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
And, Beethoven was highly opinionated in regards to the politics of his day. Why not a hidden message?

Dear Forum;

If you are looking for a hidden message, then look at Schiller, not Beethoven. It is my understanding that Schiller's ode should be entitled "An der Freiheit" ("To Freedom") and not "An die Freude" ("To Joy")!


Hofrat

[Marek Krukowski]

Originally posted by Rod:
..and because it is pure speculation there is nothing to clear up.

I'm afraid that is not even a speculation. I see no reason to think that words "O Freunde" are directed to some inner circle.

Marek