What did Beethoven mean ?

[robert newman]

'Oh friends, not these tones! Rather let us sing more cheerful and more joyful ones'

Is Beethoven refering only to the music so far heard in this same 9th symphony ? And/or something else ?

'Oh friends not THESE tones. RATHER let us sing MORE CHEERFUL AND MORE JOYFUL ONES'.

Is Beethoven really talking here about musical tonality ? A tonality that can be changed to sing more cheerfully and more joyfully ? What does he actually mean by 'these tones' ? Is he talking perhaps of radical new music using a very different tonality ?

[Rutradelusasa]

Originally posted by robert newman:

'Oh friends, not these tones! Rather let us sing more cheerful and more joyful ones'

Is Beethoven refering only to the music so far heard in this same 9th symphony ? And/or something else ?

'Oh friends not THESE tones. RATHER let us sing MORE CHEERFUL AND MORE JOYFUL ONES'.

Is Beethoven really talking here about musical tonality ? A tonality that can be changed to sing more cheerfully and more joyfully ? What does he actually mean by 'these tones' ? Is he talking perhaps of radical new music using a very different tonality ?

To me he seems to be negating his 3 earlier movements. It all starts with all the notes included in D minor and the diminished seventh chord that leads to it (C# - E - G - Bb), then he puts the recitativ against all three movements, as if complaining about them as they present themselves, as he goes on "Let's try this one: 1st movement" - "NO!" - "Second movement?" - "AGAIN NO!" - "Third?" - "NOPE!" - "Aha! I have a new one you'll like" - "That's the one".
Even the recitativ part after the presenting of the new theme is in the same manner as the ones before, this bit is more a cadenza to the recitativ and he ends it, as if the recitativ's work is done.

I really would like to know the words he had set previously to the bariton before turning the recitativ to the orchestra.

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"Wer ein holdes weib errugen..."

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:

'Oh friends, not these tones! Rather let us sing more cheerful and more joyful ones'

Is Beethoven refering only to the music so far heard in this same 9th symphony ? And/or something else ?

'Oh friends not THESE tones. RATHER let us sing MORE CHEERFUL AND MORE JOYFUL ONES'.

Is Beethoven really talking here about musical tonality ? A tonality that can be changed to sing more cheerfully and more joyfully ? What does he actually mean by 'these tones' ? Is he talking perhaps of radical new music using a very different tonality ?

I think it simply refers to the passage that precedes the soloist entry, that dissonant passage of the diminished 7th over the tonic note.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Is he talking perhaps of radical new music using a very different tonality ?

Ah, another classic Newman hypothesis!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[robert newman]

Well Rod, when the great Beethoven, in his very last symphonic statement, introduces such words I think it fair to ask what they actually meant, to him.

Certainly, at the obvious level those words relate only to what has already preceded in the 9th symphony. But 'RATHER let us sing MORE CHEERFUL AND MORE JOYFUL ONES''

But such a statement is in the first instance directed to 'friends' who had, until that same point in Beethoven's output, already been singing with him. And Beethoven now (at this time says, 'Oh friends NOT these tones. RATHER let us sing MORE CHEERFUL AND MORE JOYFUL ONES'.

In my opinion Beethoven with works such as the 'Hammerklavier' was deliberately starting his last great creative period whose musical products have that most striking feature of intimacy, privacy etc - very, very different from the finale of the 9th. The chamber works, in fact. But here in this finale is of course something very different - a final and indisputably public statement.

Beethoven had asserted his personal and musical independence for a very long time. Nobody doubts this. He as a composer ushers in an age where artistic independence is the main issue. We surely agree that Beethoven did this perhaps better than virtually any other composer till that time. And that great string of highly personal/independent chamber works is surely the most striking feature of his last years. I suggest therefore that these last sonatas and quartets etc. are what he is refering to when he says (to his friends) regarding all that has come before - NOT these tones but let us (my friends) sing something very different. And what was really in his mind was musical independence itself. Expressed in those final works that remain, till this day, our personal and often our most intimate contact with Beethoven - the chamber works starting from approximately the Hammerklavier onwards.

Yes, we can interpret these words in the 9th symphony as having meaning only within the context of that symphony, his last great public work. But it's ckear that he expressly addresses not the fickle public but his 'friends'. It's them he is here speaking to, after all.

I personally think Beethoven is here refering to the joy and happiness that comes to him and his friends by communing through the last great chamber works that he is now committed to producing. These works are definitely NOT public. They are the very opposite. This is surely music for his friends. It's this which, to Beethoven, was his joy and his true happiness.

[lvbfanatic]

This question of what did LVB mean by such and such can also be asked of that great scribble found in his last str qrt... Must it be? It must be!

Apparently, some say this scribble was found elsewhere...



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A Calm Sea and A Prosperous Voyage

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Well Rod, when the great Beethoven, in his very last symphonic statement, introduces such words I think it fair to ask what they actually meant, to him.

Certainly, at the obvious level those words relate only to what has already preceded in the 9th symphony. But 'RATHER let us sing MORE CHEERFUL AND MORE JOYFUL ONES''

But such a statement is in the first instance directed to 'friends' who had, until that same point in Beethoven's output, already been singing with him. And Beethoven now (at this time says, 'Oh friends NOT these tones. RATHER let us sing MORE CHEERFUL AND MORE JOYFUL ONES'.

In my opinion Beethoven with works such as the 'Hammerklavier' was deliberately starting his last great creative period whose musical products have that most striking feature of intimacy, privacy etc - very, very different from the finale of the 9th. The chamber works, in fact. But here in this finale is of course something very different - a final and indisputably public statement.

Beethoven had asserted his personal and musical independence for a very long time. Nobody doubts this. He as a composer ushers in an age where artistic independence is the main issue. We surely agree that Beethoven did this perhaps better than virtually any other composer till that time. And that great string of highly personal/independent chamber works is surely the most striking feature of his last years. I suggest therefore that these last sonatas and quartets etc. are what he is refering to when he says (to his friends) regarding all that has come before - NOT these tones but let us (my friends) sing something very different. And what was really in his mind was musical independence itself. Expressed in those final works that remain, till this day, our personal and often our most intimate contact with Beethoven - the chamber works starting from approximately the Hammerklavier onwards.

Yes, we can interpret these words in the 9th symphony as having meaning only within the context of that symphony, his last great public work. But it's ckear that he expressly addresses not the fickle public but his 'friends'. It's them he is here speaking to, after all.

I personally think Beethoven is here refering to the joy and happiness that comes to him and his friends by communing through the last great chamber works that he is now committed to producing. These works are definitely NOT public. They are the very opposite. This is surely music for his friends. It's this which, to Beethoven, was his joy and his true happiness.

You've been reading too much Berlioz! Robert often the most simple explanation is the correct one - Beethoven was searching for a suitable introduction to the ode. He toyed with many ideas for the words and created a scenario for the quotations of the themes from the previous movements -
"this is a day of jubilation, worth singing about...(theme of 1st movt) O no, that won't do: I want something pleasanter...(theme of 2nd movt) That is no better, merely rather more cheerful...(theme of 3rd movt) That's also too tender. Must find something more rousing like the ..I'll sing you something myself... (theme of 4th movt) That will do! Now I have found a way to express joy."

After the orchestral introduction to the Baritone's recitative Beethoven originally planned these words - "No, this chaos reminds us of our despair. Today is a day of celebration; let it be celebrated with song and dance." It is quite clear that the orchestral introduction both at the opening of the movement and as the prelude to the baritone recitative is a representation of chaos and it is these tones Beethoven is referring to!
It is in no way a reference to his past or future compositions, nor is he addressing those words to a few personal friends - this is a symphony intended for the whole world.


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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 08-13-2006).]

[Michael]

A famous conductor one time (again I forget the name!) was having a rough time at a rehearsal with one of his sopranos (not the Mafia). He didn't want to appear rude but he wanted to get the message across that she wasn't singing very well, so he sat down at the piano and played the opening instrumental recitative of the last movement of the Ninth. He didn't have to sing the words: "Oh, friends, not these rude tones" and there was no need, because the whole orchestra immediately collapsed in hysterics.

Michael

[robert newman]

Yes, Peter, the 9th symphony is intended for the whole world. And the words Beethoven uses here are indisputably addressed not to the world but to his friends. Still, I accept that they are applicable in one sense to the symphony itself.

Michael, haha ! That's tremendously funny.

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Yes, Peter, the 9th symphony is intended for the whole world. And the words Beethoven uses here are indisputably addressed not to the world but to his friends. Still, I accept that they are applicable in one sense to the symphony itself.

The words Beethoven uses have nothing to do with his personal friends - doesn't the quotation that comes from the sketches make that quite clear to you? It is a reference to the chaotic prelude and the themes of the previous movements! He is making it clear that 'these tones' will not do for Shiller's ode.

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'Man know thyself'

[robert newman]

Peter, I've already accepted (several times in writing) these words are applicable in one sense to the symphony. But the words are Beethoven's and they are indisputably, addressed to his (Beethoven's) own friends. If they are not addressed to Beethoven's friends why does the actual text specifically have Beethoven saying as he does - to his friends ???

If you say these words are not Beethoven's and are not addressed to Beethoven's friends that is one thing. But (unless language means nothing at all) these words are Beethoven's and are specifically addressed to them, even given the fact that they (also) apply to the symphony. At least, I think so and like you I've said why. You do not. Fine.

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:
Peter, I've already accepted (several times in writing) these words are applicable in one sense to the symphony. But the words are Beethoven's and they are indisputably, addressed to his (Beethoven's) own friends. If they are not addressed to Beethoven's friends why does the actual text specifically have Beethoven saying as he does - to his friends ???

If you say these words are not Beethoven's and are not addressed to Beethoven's friends that is one thing. But (unless language means nothing at all) these words are Beethoven's and are specifically addressed to them, even given the fact that they (also) apply to the symphony. At least, I think so and like you I've said why. You do not. Fine.

I think he is using the word 'friends' in a general rather than personal way - that is my interpretation.

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'Man know thyself'

[robert newman]

Peter, you may be right about me reading too much Berlioz. Only today I confess to buying a recording of the Berlioz 'Te Deum' (Op.22) - LSO/LP Choir/European Youth Orchestra etc. and with Claudio Abbado conducting. (It's on DG). That work is some 45 minutes long and I don't know it at all. I'm looking at large scale works these days. That's why I was recently looking closely at words chosen by Beethoven in his 9th Symphony. Thanks anyway.

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Peter, you may be right about me reading too much Berlioz. Only today I confess to buying a recording of the Berlioz 'Te Deum' (Op.22) - LSO/LP Choir/European Youth Orchestra etc. and with Claudio Abbado conducting. (It's on DG). That work is some 45 minutes long and I don't know it at all. I'm looking at large scale works these days. That's why I was recently looking closely at words chosen by Beethoven in his 9th Symphony. Thanks anyway.

Ah, I knew I was right about Berlioz!
Have you read his memoirs? Quite fascinating.

I'm not familiar with the Te Deum, although I keep meaning to explore more of his choral works myself but never seem to get round to it. Let me know what you think of it.

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'Man know thyself'

[robert newman]

Well sensed Peter. You are spot on - I've been focusing quite a bit lately on the Beethoven legacy as seen by Berlioz. The lecture in London at the Royal Society on 27th September ('Berlioz in London')will be introduced by David Cairns (whose multi volume biography on Berlioz is considered to be the best yet written). The sheer scale of Beethoven's 9th symphony astounded Berlioz.

Best regards