What did Beethoven mean ?

[DavidO]

Originally posted by Rod:
There isn't one worthy of the music (a recording of the Archduke Trio).

Wow, that's harsh. De gustibus & all that. I enjoy my CD of the Rubinstein-Heifetz-Feuermann, Vol 12 of the Rubinstein Collection, recorded in 1941.

[Peter]

Originally posted by DavidO:
Excellent insight. I also see the Turkish march (the Allegro assai vivace) & the associated tenor solo as a sort of preface to the gargantuan, astounding measures that follow (approx. measure 431)-- in my opinion, one of the greatest variations Beethoven ever wrote: propulsive, cosmic, frenzied, peering over into the abyss -- and of course capped off, almost 100 measures later, by the crashing return of the Joy theme in rollicking triple meter.

The key to this whole passage is Beethoven's own words in the sketches - celebration in song and dance.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by robert newman:
Rod writes -

Well Rod, this 'pro-establishment cantata' is written for the time of the Congress of Vienna that started in November that same year, 1814. Yes ? And what was the purpose of this congress ? To consolidate 300 or so states of the now defunct Holy Roman Empire and to place them within the new Germany and Prussia. If that is not an example of the Turkish music being used by Beethoven to denote the collapse of empire I do not know what is !!!

Sorry I didn't really have time to read this before. I'm afraid you've got it totally wrong here, this Congress was to redraw the boundaries of Europe in the wake of Napoleon's defeat (though he later escaped of course), all of Europe's leaders were involved. The Nobility of Vienna turned the whole thing into a fancy dress ball. One of the numbers in Beethoven's piece praises in turn each of the Kings of the dominant states represented. How further can you get from the republican revolutionary spirit? Beethoven was simply cashing-in here.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-18-2006).]

[PDG]

Originally posted by Rod:
He might would throw furniture at me for suggesting his Ode would sound better without voices...

I didn't say it would sound better, only that I'd like to be given the chance to hear it done this way. Further to my previous post, the folksong arrangements would be more clearly Beethovenesque, if the music were not so obscured by the (usually) trill singing. Don't forget, when arranging this stuff, LvB was usually in ignorance of the words anyway.

...or he might just laugh because he thinks I'm a simpleton.

I'm sure he wouldn't think that of you.

[Marek Krukowski]

Originally posted by robert newman:
Here is surely categorical evidence that Beethoven is talking on two levels in this finale to the 9th symphony.

Hi Marek, I appreciate your opinion though we have a different one.

I agree that Beethoven is talking on at least two levels, but I don't think he could not communicate with friends without writing symphony with choruses.
I'm afraid you overestimate the significance of institution of Holy Roman Empire in this period.

Marek

[Marek Krukowski]

Originally posted by Rod:
It's like asking 'is red green?'

It is exactly what I intended to say. But I just begin to think in English. So don't worry if I say something completly incomprehensible.

Marek

[Rod]

Originally posted by Marek Krukowski:
I agree that Beethoven is talking on at least two levels, but I don't think he could not communicate with friends without writing symphony with choruses.
I'm afraid you overestimate the significance of institution of Holy Roman Empire in this period.

Marek

Beethoven even wrote another choral piece to welcome the Congress's Noble delegates, 'Ihr wiesen Grunder' (WoO95)! Apparently some of the Viennese nobility lavished so much cash on the entertainment that it left them broke.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Marek Krukowski:
It is exactly what I intended to say. But I just begin to think in English. So don't worry if I say something completly incomprehensible.

Marek

Don't worry, many incomprehensible things are said here, by native English speakers!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[robert newman]

Music will rescue the English from their own language !!!

[Rod]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Music will rescue the English from their own language !!!

Handel did that for us already.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[robert newman]

That may well be Rod. Whether we choose to listen or not. I am more and more interested in the great Handel. Thank you for being such a keen lover of his music.

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Rod:
Handel did that for us already.

Handel did struggle with the use of English in his music. He often puts the emphasis on the wrong syllables and comes off at best awkward.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Sorrano:

Handel did struggle with the use of English in his music. He often puts the emphasis on the wrong syllables and comes off at best awkward.

Speaking as one of the few genuine Englishmen left in London, and having recordings of all of Handel's English language productions, I feel qualified to totally contradict your remark. I suppose you would say Bach would have been a natural had he wrote any English pieces? Either way I would be interested if you could provide an example of a superior treatment of the English language by a composer. Gilbert and Sullivan perhaps?!

Perhaps you are confusing awkward sylables with awkward singers, of which there are many in this field? If not, please name me these at best awkard sylables, followed by the totally wrong sylables.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-19-2006).]

[robert newman]

I tend to agree with Rod here. Handel often sought the best, most able, of contemporary English writers. I do not think he failed in these areas.

[Rod]

Originally posted by robert newman:


I tend to agree with Rod here. Handel often sought the best, most able, of contemporary English writers. I do not think he failed in these areas.

I think what is in question is Handel's use of the language, but although he used many good scripts some of the librettos he made use of were as bad as The Glorious Moment which for the most part is pretty awful. Still as the latter proves, you don't necessarily need a good text to get good music.

But there are various anecdotes of Handel making sometimes strenuous efforts to get advice on any English words he was confused about. All things considered Handel did outstandingly well considering the vast majority of his output was not in his native tongue. I would say his general technique with the voice was never surpassed.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin



[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-20-2006).]