What did Beethoven mean ?

[robert newman]

Rod writes -

'He used Turkish instruments in the finale of the pro-Establishment cantata 'The Glorious Moment' in 1814, what's the hidden message there?'

Well Rod, this 'pro-establishment cantata' is written for the time of the Congress of Vienna that started in November that same year, 1814. Yes ? And what was the purpose of this congress ? To consolidate 300 or so states of the now defunct Holy Roman Empire and to place them within the new Germany and Prussia. If that is not an example of the Turkish music being used by Beethoven to denote the collapse of empire I do not know what is !!!

And if you accept this, then, perhaps, you will agree that to Beethoven, here, and in various other places in his mature music 'Turkish' music (e.g. in the music to 'King Stephen' and the 'Ruins of Athens' etc.) is doing exactly the same thing. Right ? Or still wrong ??

Ha !!

[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 08-18-2006).]

[robert newman]

Dear Hofrat,

Very good point !! And yet Beethoven's is known as the Ode to Joy. Here is surely categorical evidence that Beethoven is talking on two levels in this finale to the 9th symphony.

Hi Marek, I appreciate your opinion though we have a different one.

Regards


[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 08-18-2006).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Marek Krukowski:
I'm afraid that is not even a speculation. I see no reason to think that words "O Freunde" are directed to some inner circle.

Marek

I meant it is speculation on the part of those here that are doing the speculating! You will recall my words in this chain that the whole chain is a non-issue, and all the imaginative questions asked here are non-questions. It's like asking 'is red green?'

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-18-2006).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by robert newman:
Dear Hofrat,

Very good point !! And yet Beethoven's is known as the Ode to Joy. Here is surely categorical evidence that Beethoven is talking on two levels in this finale to the 9th symphony.

Hi Marek, I appreciate your opinion though we have a different one.

Regards

But Robert this is all well known. Read the verses in the Ode Beethoven used (and also what he left out!). That is what this music is all about. It's easy when you think about it.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-18-2006).]

[Athea]

Originally posted by Rod:
He'd probably explode with laughter.

Ha, he would rather hurl some furniture at you!

[Rod]

Originally posted by Athea:

Originally posted by Rod:
He'd probably explode with laughter.

Ha, he would rather hurl some furniture at you!

He might would throw furniture at me for suggesting his Ode would sound better without voices, for saying the March is superficial, that there are hidden meanings by his use of turkish instruments, or that he should have used his Choral Fantasy instead etc etc. He might, or he might just laugh because he thinks I'm a simpleton.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-18-2006).]

[robert newman]

Well Rod, hurling soup plates or 'kitchen sinks' in the 9th symphony is very Beethovenesque !

And now there is the risk of injury to sum up the case as follows -

Herr Ludwig Van Beethoven uses 'Turkish' music in at least 4 cases in his mature music related to the collapse of empires. Therefore Beethoven, even at the Congress of Vienna, was poking fun at politicians and despotic regimes by writing such stuff. It is this hidden 'message' which his use of Turkish music meant to him personally and to the friends who were familiar with his views and his music at the time. This 'message' is given (once again) in the finale to the 9th symphony. The Turkish music (privately) is Beethoven's 'Ode to Joy'.

(Now I must get a one way ticket to Botany Bay or some island off the South American coast - hah !)

OK I accept that I am OTT on this.

[Rod]

Originally posted by robert newman:

... The Turkish music (privately) is Beethoven's 'Ode to Joy'.

(Now I must get a one way ticket to Botany Bay or some island off the South American coast - hah !)

OK I accept that I am OTT on this.

I think you've hit the nail on the head Rob, All of a sudden I know Beethoven's secret behind all of this - Beethoven was really a Turk.

By the way what happened to your other plan to go (escape) to America?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-18-2006).]

[robert newman]

I don't think Beethoven was a Turk. But at the time he uses such music Turk meant (at least to Beethoven) more than a physical Turk. So Turkish music (which does not seem to have been in fashion during the 1820's (despite being hugely popular in the 1780's and in to the 90's) became a sort of musical revolutiom. To Beethoven. It and its effects intrigued him. It was music he had heard, off and on throughout his life.

Would Beethoven ever have finished the 9th with the Turkish march ?. Would that not have astounded Vienna audiences ?

Thanks for asking about America. I've managed to work on some things here (instead of over there) and will see in another month or so.

p.s. Was meaning to ask you Rod if you have a favourite recording of the Archduke Trio ?

[Rod]

Originally posted by robert newman:


p.s. Was meaning to ask you Rod if you have a favourite recording of the Archduke Trio ?

There isn't one worthy of the music. The recording I play and presented here is by the Trondlin Trio, though like most of the others they do not observe the repeat of the trio in the scherzo.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-18-2006).]

[robert newman]

Thanks

[Joy]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rod:
[B] Of course it was fashionable at the time, but Robert is suggesting some political motive to Beethoven's use of this style in the Ode to Joy. I suggest the instruments just fitted the bill for Beethoven and nothing more, remember he uses them again at the end of the movement.

Thanks for clearing that up!



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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Joy]

Originally posted by robert newman:


The political part is simple enough. Beethoven had made a political statement years before in the 'Eroica'. He was political in music for the 'Ruins of Athens'. In'Fidelio'. And in various other public works.

Mention has been made of the instruments most often associated with 'Turkish' music. If we list them again -

Cymbal, Bass Drum, Triangle, Piccolo.

From an acoustic point of view all of these instruments are very interesting.

But, again, I agree that the text is capable of various interpretations and I do respect the views of others.

I see another book in the future!



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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Rod]

Originally posted by robert newman:


Thanks for asking about America. I've managed to work on some things here (instead of over there) and will see in another month or so.

Well I'll miss you Rob, for what it's worth I admire your robust and unfluttered state under heavy fire! And you will have lost your best photographer.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-18-2006).]

[DavidO]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
I see the Turkish march as simply being a manner of giving the listeners something a little more familiar to them to listen to, to help them to adjust to this novelty of a chorus in the symphony. Nothing like this had ever been done before; certainly not on this scale. You have here a dichomoty of old and new, familiar and strange.

Excellent insight. I also see the Turkish march (the Allegro assai vivace) & the associated tenor solo as a sort of preface to the gargantuan, astounding measures that follow (approx. measure 431)-- in my opinion, one of the greatest variations Beethoven ever wrote: propulsive, cosmic, frenzied, peering over into the abyss -- and of course capped off, almost 100 measures later, by the crashing return of the Joy theme in rollicking triple meter.