What did Beethoven mean ?

[Rod]

Originally posted by robert newman:
At the risk of heresy I really must ask why a Turkish military band features so prominently in the finale to Beethoven's 9th symphony.

Ye Gods man! What is it with people here these days!? Is it some contageous form of madness? Beethoven introduces the military march here, aside from the structural purpose it serves, because of these words: "Thus, brothers, you should run your race, like a hero going to victory"!!!! What would you have the hero doing instead Rob, a funeral march to victory, something with more 'gravitas'??

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-17-2006).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Megan:


Dare I question whether this finale would be more suited to the finale of the 9th ?. I believe Beethoven had several ideas .

The disease is spreading. Who's next for the funny farm!?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Megan]

Originally posted by Rod:
The disease is spreading. Who's next for the funny farm!?

I tire of your caustic, tiresome, unhelpful remarks, I shan't bother dallying here any longer !

Adieu !

[Rod]

I'm sorry but this chain is making a mockery of this Beethoven forum, any informed person visiting this page for the first time might think we are all a bunch of simpletons.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[robert newman]

Let us assume, Rod, Beethoven was a man who had reason to do what he did, and had reason to say what he said. And to write what he wrote. (As regards final choices for what is in the finale of the 9th symphony). Yhese are reasonable assumptions.

Now, if you're saying music in the form of an irreverent Turkish military march was best to change the mood of the 9th Symphony at this point what are we saying of Beethoven ? He was well capable of writing wonderful marches - as everyone knows if a march is really the issue. Take Fidelio, for example. But wasn't Turkish military music used by Beethoven himself to portray destruction of Athens in 'The Ruins of Athens' of 13 years before?? How strange that it appears here in the finale to the 9th Symphony and in the form of a celebration - this even after the appearance of the Ode. To me, there is nothing unusual in pointing this fact out. It simply begs an explanation.

(13 years before the premieree of the 9th Beethoven had of course accepted commissions to provide incidental music for two dramatic pieces being created for inauguration of the new Hungarian Theater in Pest. Since that event was scheduled for early October he is known to have worked on these pieces while on vacation at Teplitz in Bohemia. On September 13 he sent off this music for these two plays: 'King Stephen: Hungary’s First Benefactor' and 'The Ruins of Athens'. These performances were then set back 4 months.

Corect me if I am wrong but those two works were undeniably nationalist plays, with that for 'King Stephen' refering to incidents in the life of the eleventh-century founder of modern Hungary, and 'The Ruins of Athens' depicting the city of Pest (later one bank of Budapest) as depicting its improvement over ancient and sacked Athens.

So we have examples from Beethoven himself of Turkish military music being a portrayal not of joy but of destruction.

I entirely agree with Megan that the Choral Fantasie would be better suited as the finale to the 9th symphony than what we have. It will surely remain so unless/until some reason can be provided for why Beethoven did what he did, by his own choice, with this Turkish music.

On historical and other grounds it begs an explanation and one cannot dismiss others simply because they call these features of the 9th into question.

I assume, I believe, Beethoven did have reason. But I do not believe we have yet discovered or even discussed what that was. That is a pity, especially if reference to this problem makes you dismiss the subject altogether.



[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 08-17-2006).]

[Rod]

Robert with respect these are all non-issues and non-questions. For example how can we even consider the choral fantasy when Beethoven's final decision was to use Schiller's Ode?! (please don't respond to this question, I am not really asking you this!). Then we have the suggestion of playing the music without the voices, or the march is not serious enough (what about the fact that he uses the turkish instruments in the closing section too?), and then the issue about the meaning of Beethoven's opening words. ALL NON-ISSUES! NOT WORTHY OF CONSIDERATION! Peter, somebody, please...

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-17-2006).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Robert with respect these are all non-issues and non-questions. For example how can we even consider the choral fantasy when Beethoven's final decision was to use Schiller's Ode?! (please don't respond to this question, I am not really asking you this!). Then we have the suggestion of playing the music without the voices, or the march is not serious enough (what about the fact that he uses the turkish instruments in the closing section too?), and then the issue about the meaning of Beethoven's opening words. ALL NON-ISSUES! NOT WORTHY OF CONSIDERATION! Peter, somebody, please...

I agree Rod - I'm sorry if other members dislike the glorious finale but I find it a resounding triumph and generally the most popular part of the whole symphony! The March (which is in effect a variation of the Joy theme) is described by Antony Hopkins as 'totally operatic, as though the prisoners from Fidelio had enlisted in a great army of liberation' and what could be more rousing than this combination of the Joy theme with the wonderful tenor solo 'Brothers, hero like to conquest flying'?

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'Man know thyself'



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 08-17-2006).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
...and what could be more rousing than this combination of the Joy theme with the wonderful tenor solo 'Brothers, hero like to conquest flying'?

If someone had said the march was if anything the best part I would have had more sympathy!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-17-2006).]

[Chris]

Originally posted by Peter:
'totally operatic, as though the prisoners from Fidelio had enlisted in a great army of liberation' and what could be more rousing than this combination of the Joy theme with the wonderful tenor solo 'Brothers, hero like to conquest flying'?

Strangely, I have had the same thought myself! This is truly excellent music.

[Sorrano]

I see the Turkish march as simply being a manner of giving the listeners something a little more familiar to them to listen to, to help them to adjust to this novelty of a chorus in the symphony. Nothing like this had ever been done before; certainly not on this scale. You have here a dichomoty of old and new, familiar and strange.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
I see the Turkish march as simply being a manner of giving the listeners something a little more familiar to them to listen to, to help them to adjust to this novelty of a chorus in the symphony. Nothing like this had ever been done before; certainly not on this scale. You have here a dichomoty of old and new, familiar and strange.

The march per se is just another piece in Beethoven's musical toolbox, he used it in other late pieces, op132 as I mentioned, and op101. In the symphony the march is required for the wording and provides a stark contrast to the surrounding material. As Peter mentioned Beethoven's treatment of the Ode is variation like, and what was the very first variation in the greatest of all variations (ie the Diabelli) A MARCH!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[robert newman]

I honestly believe these things do matter. They matter because Beethoven chose them and did not choose others. He had reasons. My final post on this issue of the Turkish music is as follows -

The simplest explanation (and the one I prefer) is that Beethoven in the finale to the 9th symphony is talking on two quite different but complementary levels. The first level is that of the normal interpretation - that of brotherhood of mankind etc. In this level his use of clumsy Turkish military music has no real significance.

But on the second level Beethoven is definitely giving something to his musical friends. On this level the Turkish music is highly significant.

The Turkish March is indisputably happy. It was used and understood by friends who already knew him and his music as symbolising that a kingdom had fallen (in the same way he had used Turkish music to symbolise the fall of ancient Athens, for example). It therefore symbolises the collapse of a civilization. Here in the 9th symphony it symbolises the collapse of the established order in Europe. The end of the old Holy Roman Empire. That event certainly had impact on every single person who, until then, were ruled by it. It was news in Beethoven's own time. And this, I think, is the true singificance of using the Turkish music, its streetwise style, its jollity etc and the fact that everyone in the picture joins in. (Nothing to do with Islam, as such). Secondly, the Turkish music (used later in the finale) is symbolic of the ordinary mass of peoples. They feature later in the finale because (as said) Beethoven is giving messages on two different levels.

So we have Schiller's Ode, not solely as some lofty idealism but adapted to be music of ordinary, clumsy, ordinary folk also. His friends. The second of these are the new tones of which he, Beethoven, spoke.

I honestly believe Beethoven knew all too well about the political realities of his own times. His revolutionary opera 'Fidelio' had been performed repeatedly during the Congress of Vienna - the very body who would introduce harsh new laws of conservative censorship etc. How does one explain that ? Beethoven learned from this that when he had a chance to make a big public statement in the future he needed to speak on several levels. And this, I believe, explains his use of the Turkish music and its use right at the end of the 9th symphony. This percussion, this noise, is the music that runs side by side by Schiller's elevated ideas of Greek philosophy.

Anyway, I've said enough.

[sjwenger]

>'Oh friends, not these tones! Rather let us sing more cheerful and more joyful ones'
Is Beethoven refering only to the music so far heard in this same 9th symphony ? And/or something else ?

Maybe a somewhat off-the-wall response:

I think Beethoven was (always) struggling with traditional symphonic form. The final movement of the Ninth was a complete break from that, and possibly that's why he said "not these tones." Possibly he was even arguing with himself, trying and not finding a way to do what he wanted within established forms, and he finally told himself to make the break.

[Rod]

Originally posted by sjwenger:


Maybe a somewhat off-the-wall response:

I think Beethoven was (always) struggling with traditional symphonic form. The final movement of the Ninth was a complete break from that, and possibly that's why he said "not these tones." Possibly he was even arguing with himself, trying and not finding a way to do what he wanted within established forms, and he finally told himself to make the break.

Well he was working on his 10th when he died, a conventional one as far as I as I am aware. He hadn't run out of ideas with the 9th, he just wanted to get the Ode out of his system!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Joy]

Originally posted by Chris:
Strangely, I have had the same thought myself! This is truly excellent music.

Totally agree!



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'Truth and beauty joined'