Influences on the Sixth

[Rod]

Originally posted by Frankli:
If I am right Clementi's early works were widely available - he was a publisher himself - so I bet that Beethoven knew them well. And some years later Breitkopf wrote to Beethoven that they had reprinted most of Clementi's piano works, so they belonged to the standard repertoire.
Besides, Beethoven expressed his admiration for the older composer more than one time, and the influence from Clementi on Beethoven is clear, just like Mozart, Dussek, and many others provided him with ideas for his musical development.

I do agree on op.6 (composed 1 or 2 years after the discussed Clementi sonata) up to a point, though the treatment of the material in the 5th Symphony strikes me much more when compared with Clementi's sonata. It is true that we cannot tell how Beethoven's style would have developed without the influence from Clementi; sometimes people invent the wheel independent from each other.

My (and Picasso's) point about geniuses is that they often "borrow" ideas and motifs from lesser artists, and use them to create something superior with it. No shame if Beethoven, Mozart, and others plagiarized a musical idea here and there; no man is an island, entire of itself!

I'd be surprised, if the Clementi piece was widely available in Vienna and he had heard it, that Beethoven would have used such a similar theme in one of his opus list (ie Op6). Nevertheless my point is that the whole issue is solely conjecture, and conjecture serves no purpose on its own, hence this whole process of searching for the origins of themes based on listening to other music is of little value. What makes the 5th Beethoven's is not the 4 note motif, it's what he does with it.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-12-2006).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Frankli:
Which make Mozart's condescending judgements on Clementi's style all the more interesting, don't they?
I think that there can hardly be any doubt that Mozart "borrowed" this motif from Clementi's op. 24/2 for his own Zauberflöte: http://www.frank.dds.nl/Etc/Clementi_3.mp3

Maybe so, but who's to say? I have mentioned here before the uncanny resemblance of Beethoven's lovely opening theme from the trio Op70Nr2 to that in a movement from one of Handel's Op6 Concertos. Whether there was any concious influence or whether Beethoven even knew of this Handel music I have no idea. This sort of guesswork rarely offers anything constructive. If Beethoven had wrote a sketch of the alleged 'source' music or the score was known to be in his posession, that would be more interesting.



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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Rod:
I'd be surprised, if the Clementi piece was widely available in Vienna and he had heard it, that Beethoven would have used such a similar theme in one of his opus list (ie Op6). Nevertheless my point is that the whole issue is solely conjecture, and conjecture serves no purpose on its own, hence this whole process of searching for the origins of themes based on listening to other music is of little value. What makes the 5th Beethoven's is not the 4 note motif, it's what he does with it.

Dear Forum members;

It is my understanding that during Beethoven's lifetime the complete piano works of Haydn, Mozart, and Clementi appeared in print. Beethoven owned the Clementi complete piano works. In addition, when Beethoven was asked by a close friend to recommend a piano method book for his son who was starting to take piano instruction, Beethoven not only suggested the Clementi method but went to the nearest music shop and bought the book for the child.

So, it appears that Clementi's piano music was quite well know in Vienna in general, and by Beethoven in particular.


Hofrat

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Hofrat:

Dear Forum members;

It is my understanding that during Beethoven's lifetime the complete piano works of Haydn, Mozart, and Clementi appeared in print. Beethoven owned the Clementi complete piano works. In addition, when Beethoven was asked by a close friend to recommend a piano method book for his son who was starting to take piano instruction, Beethoven not only suggested the Clementi method but went to the nearest music shop and bought the book for the child.

So, it appears that Clementi's piano music was quite well know in Vienna in general, and by Beethoven in particular.

Hofrat

Dear Forum;

Allow me to add that Clementi owned the publication and distribution rights in the United Kingdom of the following Beethoven masterpieces:

1. opus 59 quartets.
2. 4th symphony.
3. Coriolan overture.
4. 4th [piano concerto.
5. violin concerto.
6. piano arrangement of violin concerto.

Beethoven not only knew of Clementi very well, he was in contractular relations with him!


Hofrat

[Rod]

Originally posted by Hofrat:


So, it appears that Clementi's piano music was quite well know in Vienna in general, and by Beethoven in particular.


Hofrat

Well I know enough about Clementi and Beethoven, but the Beethoven piece in question, Op6 (and not the 5th, Op6 is far closer to Clementi's use despite the different mood of the piece) was composed shortly after Clementi's. This is why I wondered if Beethoven had time to see Clementi's score before composing his own. It's just that I'd be surprised if Beethoven borrowed the theme of a work still fresh in the public domain by another well known composer. He could have easily thought of something else for this little composition.

Hofrat (or anybody) can you think of any other use of a four note motif by any other composer of the time or before? I bet is I search my (extensive) Handel collection hard enough I'll find one there! It's not a big deal though I confess, but we can't just say Clementi invented this music and not Beethoven without hard evidence. If Beethoven copied Clementi, I wonder where, or maybe who, CLEMENTI got the idea from...?! Which lead's me back to my original position, don't waste too much time looking into this kind of thing.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-13-2006).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Well I know enough about Clementi and Beethoven, but the Beethoven piece in question, Op6 (and not the 5th, Op6 is far closer to Clementi's use despite the different mood of the piece) was composed shortly after Clementi's. This is why I wondered if Beethoven had time to see Clementi's score before composing his own. It's just that I'd be surprised if Beethoven borrowed the theme of a work still fresh in the public domain by another well known composer. He could have easily thought of something else for this little composition.

Hofrat (or anybody) can you think of any other use of a four note motif by any other composer of the time or before? I bet is I search my (extensive) Handel collection hard enough I'll find one there! It's not a big deal though I confess, but we can't just say Clementi invented this music and not Beethoven without hard evidence. If Beethoven copied Clementi, I wonder where, or maybe who, CLEMENTI got the idea from...?! Which lead's me back to my original position, don't waste too much time looking into this kind of thing.

That rhythm occurs in the Mozart piano concerto K.503 which would most certainly have been known by Beethoven. Beethoven himself also uses it in the 4th piano concerto.

All these so-called similarities only go to show that all composers learnt from others. For example Cramer's Op.23 sonatas were the model for the finale of Op.26 and Mozart's A major quartet likewise for Beethoven's Op.18/5. Schubert was quite obsessed by the rhythm of Beethoven's 7th symphony slow movement. One could go on, but the point you made Rod is correct - these are models and the composers stamp their own personality and genius on their works.

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'Man know thyself'

[Michael]

Getting back to the original title of this thread, I remember reading somewhere that even the opening movement of the "Toy Symphony" of Leopold Mozart (formerly attributed to Haydn) was one of Beethoven's influences in the Sixth Symphony. There is a certain bucolic similarity.