Influences on the Sixth

[Frankli]

Having discussed marches, hymns, and the influence of French revolutionary music on Beethoven, here is another fine example: Lefèvre's Hymne à l'Agriculture. composed in 1796.
It's a short piece, which expresses a call for a return to nature, which was typical of that time: the pollination of the early German romantic movement by Rousseau.

Apart from Haydn's obvious influence on the Pastoral symphony, can it be possible that Beethoven knew the Lefèvre piece? Comparisons between the bird imitations right at the start, and the overal rhythm, with the Pastoral's last movement can hardly be a coincidence.
Listen and judge for yourself. Lefèvre can be download here:
http://www.frank.dds.nl/Etc/Lefevre.mp3

[Peter]

Thanks for posting that enjoyable piece. There are certain similarities and also Justin Knecht (1752-1817) had written a symphony titled 'The musical portrait of nature' which has a five movement plan with a first movement describing a beautiful sunlit countryside, a storm in the 3rd movement and the finale titled 'Nature raises her voice towards heaven offering to the creator sweet and agreable songs.' Now it is certain that B knew of this work, even if he never heard it performed - Sir George Grove discovered that this symphony by Knecht was actually advertised on the cover of Beethoven's early 'Electoral' sonatas WoO47.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[robert newman]

Thank you very much for that interesting information Frankli. It must surely be accepted on this musical evidence and on other grounds that Lefèvre's 'Hymne à l'Agriculture' composed in 1796 was known to Beethoven at the time he composed the 'Pastoral' Symphony and had obvious influence on Beethoven in his writing of that piece.

This sort of evidence is extremely valuable in showing that composers were aware of each other's music (and directly influenced by it) but also that at any given moment in time there exists within human society a 'zeitgeist' or topical emphasis on things which has influence/impact on all who work within those fields. This is why context is so important in appreciating art and expression.

I am presently working with some biographical material in a quite different field, that of the rise of modern democracy through men such as Thomas Paine. Similarly, it's clear to me that Paine (rather like Beethoven) gave us over and over again the clearest expression of his time on issues/subjects which engaged not only him but the minds of many other people. Beethoven's 'Pastoral' symphony is far superior, musically, to this earlier piece by Lefevre despite having been greatly and obviously influenced by it. Similarly, Thomas Paine's 'revolutionary' ideas on democracy etc. (contained in, for example, 'The Rights of Man' of 1791/2) were by far the most eloquent statement of truths being widely discussed though not so coherently by others at that very same time. In both cases Beethoven and Thomas Paine are the best, most perfected expressions of the 'zeitgeist' of those times, though in very different fields.

This sort of evidence from Lefevre is extremely interesting. It's almost as if certain music and musicians are announcing the arrival of a new dawn - a theme taken up later by various others so that it becomes an identifiable fashion. In this case, the most eloquent and lasting expression of that particular thing is musically found in Beethoven's 'Pastoral' though, at the time of its composition he was greatly influenced by this work of Lefevre.

Similarly, a thousand farmers may see from clouds that rain is imminent yet only one of them paints a lasting impression of it when it finally arrives. So in this case.

Regards




[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 08-08-2006).]

[Frankli]

Originally posted by Peter:
Thanks for posting that enjoyable piece. There are certain similarities and also Justin Knecht (1752-1817) had written a symphony titled 'The musical portrait of nature' which has a five movement plan with a first movement describing a beautiful sunlit countryside, a storm in the 3rd movement and the finale titled 'Nature raises her voice towards heaven offering to the creator sweet and agreable songs.' Now it is certain that B knew of this work, even if he never heard it performed - Sir George Grove discovered that this symphony by Knecht was actually advertised on the cover of Beethoven's early 'Electoral' sonatas WoO47.

That's a funny story about the advertisement!
It's a pity that the symphony, written in 1784 (just after these early Beethoven sonatas) and with a French title, was never recorded afaik. In 1794 Knecht composed another piece with imitations of nature: "Die duch ein Donnerwetter unterbrochene Hirtenwonne, eine musikalische Schilderung auf der Orgel".
Anyway, we cannot call Knecht a French influence, since he was a German and lived there all his life.

[Frankli]

Originally posted by robert newman:
Thank you very much for that interesting information Frankli. It must surely be accepted on this musical evidence and on other grounds that Lefèvre's 'Hymne à l'Agriculture' composed in 1796 was known to Beethoven at the time he composed the 'Pastoral' Symphony and had obvious influence on Beethoven in his writing of that piece.
<snip>

Yes, I agree with you on the subject of "context". I remember that while reading biographies of composers as a kid, I had the impression that they all sat isolated in their house composing one masterpiece after the other, without even looking out of the window. They didn't laugh and spoke a kind of biblical language.
By now I know that in cultural centers like Vienna they knew each other and their works, went out to do business or to visit the theatre and the pubs and the brothels, and actually had a busy social life. So they all were part of the same changing cultural, historical and social world and had a lot in common.

Picasso once remarked that while artists borrow, geniuses steal. And that's exactly what Beethoven and many others did: they had a wide interest in new developments in their own circles as well as others, and they would also grab stuff that was considered as oldfashioned (in the case of Beethoven: pre-Bach fugal writing and old church modes), and incorporated that in their work.
In my view a genius is not defined in the first place by doing inventions, but by the gift of blending existing styles, tricks, and effects into something new; something that cannot be copied.
The interesting thing is that new styles and tricks were mostly developed by minor composers.
Well, like Mozart, Beethoven was very skillful in picking up and integrating ideas that he discovered anywhere: in nature, in the theatre, in books, on the streets.

Thomas Paine idem dito, is my guess. I read that he travelled a lot and met many people (and that he was, ironically, imprisoned by Robespierre). So he had influences from people that were more or less busy with the same thing, but Paine managed to blend all that to a strong and consistent philosophical system. Interesting man!

[Michael]

Originally posted by Frankli:
That's a funny story about the advertisement!
It's a pity that the symphony, written in 1784 (just after these early Beethoven sonatas) and with a French title, was never recorded afaik.

I did hear an extract from this symphony about ten years ago. John Eliot Gardiner did a television documentary on music that could possibly have influenced Beethoven. They played the last movement, which in the Pastoral became the "Shepherd's Song". As far as I can remember, there was a superficial resemblance - more rhythmic than thematic. It was a pastoral yodel, if you know what I mean, but without Beethoven's sublime theme.

Michael

[DavidO]

Originally posted by Michael:
I did hear an extract from this symphony about ten years ago. John Eliot Gardiner did a television documentary on music that could possibly have influenced Beethoven.

Do you happen to know whether this program was ever released on video?

[Cetto von Cronstorff]

Originally posted by Frankli:
Having discussed marches, hymns, and the influence of French revolutionary music on Beethoven, here is another fine example: Lefèvre's Hymne à l'Agriculture. composed in 1796.
It's a short piece, which expresses a call for a return to nature, which was typical of that time: the pollination of the early German romantic movement by Rousseau.

Apart from Haydn's obvious influence on the Pastoral symphony, can it be possible that Beethoven knew the Lefèvre piece? Comparisons between the bird imitations right at the start, and the overal rhythm, with the Pastoral's last movement can hardly be a coincidence.
Listen and judge for yourself. Lefèvre can be download here:
http://www.frank.dds.nl/Etc/Lefevre.mp3

The music of the Fetes of revolutionary France was published in a series of volumes beginning in 1795. Was Beethoven familiar with them? As far as I know evidence that he was is circumstantial, based in some measure on Beethoven's use of similar materials and stylistic tendencies in his works in the early nineteenth century. But there is one compelling circumstance. Beginning in 1798 Beethoven was a frequent visitor to the home of Bernadotte, the French ambassador to Vienna, who was quite fond of music, and who seems to have originally suggested Beethoven write a symphony about Napoleon. In this connection he also met Kreutzer, who was a member of Bernadotte's entourage. The first volume of the music of the Fetes contained Kreutzer's Ouverture de la journee de Marathon, strong reason in itself for Kreutzer to show the collection to Beethoven. Given the similarity of the allegro theme of the first movement of Beethoven's First Symphony to Kreutzer's overture,as several scholars have observed, it is likely that Beethoven did see this volume. And given Bernadotte's interest in both music and the Revolution, it seems equally likely that he would mention the entire series to Beethoven.

Regarding the 'ranz des vaches' (which as melody is much older than Lefevre's piece), Frank Kirby discusses this at some length in an article, 'Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony as a Sinfonia caracteristica,' in The Creative World of Beethoven, ed. Paul Henry Lang [New York, 1970].




[This message has been edited by Cetto von Cronstorff (edited 08-11-2006).]

[Michael]

Originally posted by DavidO:
Do you happen to know whether this program was ever released on video?

I don't think so. Not many music documentaries find their way onto video. You could do a trawl of J E Gardiner on Google. As far as I can recall, it was a Channel Four (not BBC4) production.
It was extremely interesting as it also played a part of a pre-Beethoven symphony with a pizzicato movement very similar to the third movement of the Fifth. I taped it at the time, but the damned thing won't play now.

Michael



[This message has been edited by Michael (edited 08-11-2006).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Michael:
I don't think so. Not many music documentaries find their way onto video. You could do a trawl of J E Gardiner on Google. As far as I can recall, it was a Channel Four (not BBC4) production.
It was extremely interesting as it also played a part of a pre-Beethoven symphony with a pizzicato movement very similar to the third movement of the Fifth. I taped it at the time, but the damned thing won't play now.

Michael

I saw this TV show, I remember it well concerning the 5th. I don't mind if B borrowed a bit of a tune here and there but nothing was proved either way in this programme as far as I'm concerned. I'm sure someone could find an alledged influence for the four note 'fate' theme of the first movement (and which is effectively that of the third too) if one looked hard enough... if Beethoven had not already composed it himself in the diminutive sonata Op6 long before. And this is a piece with no political connotations whatsoever. What is the point of it all?


------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin



[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-12-2006).]

[Frankli]

Originally posted by Rod:
I saw this TV show, I remember it well concerning the 5th. I don't mind if B borrowed a bit of a tune here and there but nothing was proved either way in this programme as far as I'm concerned. I'm sure someone could find an alledged influence for the four note 'fate' theme of the first movement (and which is effectively that of the third too) if one looked hard enough...

<...>

Not so hard.... Clementi's exposition of the allegro con fuoco from his op. 34/2 sonata (1795) greatly resembles the start of the 5th Symphony: not a melody but a simple motif. Just 3 repeating notes followed by a descending one, the whole movement built on that triviality. Both unique in classical sonata writing and in the history of the symphony: http://www.frank.dds.nl/Etc/Clementi_2.mp3

This allegro is prepaired by a slow and stunning introduction not much unlike Beethoven's Pathétique sonata (and returns in the development section), which is also rather unique in piano literature of that time: http://www.frank.dds.nl/Etc/Clementi_1.mp3
And just like in the Pathétique sonata it returns in the development section.

This Clementi one sounds like a back to the basics, doesn't it? We know that Beethoven held Clementi in high esteem, and I guess that this dense piano writing was one reason for that.

I once read that Beethoven copied Clementi's style into his own symphonic writing. This sounds like an example of that. I wonder if anyone knows of more examples?



[This message has been edited by Frankli (edited 08-12-2006).]

[robert newman]

Clementi is also said to have provided the motivic material for the opening bars of Mozart's overture to the 'Magic Flute' (1791) from at least 2 sonatas he (Clementi) wrote earlier than 1791. One source for Mozart was the Clementi sonata in B Flat written c.1780 (published in 1804 after Mozart's death. That sonata's title page even has a note written by Clementi saying it hsd first been played in Mozart's presence in 1781). There are also other Clementi candidates for the 'Mozart' theme. In short, Mozart definitely learned the'Magic Flute' motif from two and possibly more than two Clementi sources before he wrote the Magic Flute overture. Clementi seems to have been a rich source of motivic and thematic material to quite a number of late 18th century/early 19th century composers.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Frankli:
<...>

Not so hard.... Clementi's exposition of the allegro con fuoco from his op. 34/2 sonata (1795) greatly resembles the start of the 5th Symphony: not a melody but a simple motif. Just 3 repeating notes followed by a descending one, the whole movement built on that triviality. Both unique in classical sonata writing and in the history of the symphony: http://www.frank.dds.nl/Etc/Clementi_2.mp3

This allegro is prepaired by a slow and stunning introduction not much unlike Beethoven's Pathétique sonata (and returns in the development section), which is also rather unique in piano literature of that time: http://www.frank.dds.nl/Etc/Clementi_1.mp3
And just like in the Pathétique sonata it returns in the development section.

This Clementi one sounds like a back to the basics, doesn't it? We know that Beethoven held Clementi in high esteem, and I guess that this dense piano writing was one reason for that.

I once read that Beethoven copied Clementi's style into his own symphonic writing. This sounds like an example of that. I wonder if anyone knows of more examples?

[This message has been edited by Frankli (edited 08-12-2006).]

Thanks for these Frankli. Your track 2 clearly displays a similar 4-note motif, but I bet you could find a dozen more, as this is such an obvious rhetorical gesture. Have you heard Beethoven's two movement piano duet Op6 (I can provide a WMA)? The first movement here too has the four note motif that is repeated a step higher and developed later on. This was composed around 1796. Do you think Beethoven would have robbed Clementi for this little piece? And if so have you wondered who Clementi robbed get the theme? Did Beethoven even have access to Clementi's score in 1796? Where does it end? Do we do this for every theme of every piece? This kind of thing unfortunately became an industry for Handel commentators for example, but these people just don't get it.

With your track 1 if find it harder to see the connection with the Pathetique. Beethoven is far more concise.


------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin



[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-12-2006).]

[Frankli]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Clementi is also said to have provided the motivic material for the opening bars of Mozart's overture to the 'Magic Flute' (1791) from at least 2 sonatas he (Clementi) wrote earlier than 1791. One source for Mozart was the Clementi sonata in B Flat written c.1780 (published in 1804 after Mozart's death. That sonata's title page even has a note written by Clementi saying it hsd first been played in Mozart's presence in 1781). There are also other Clementi candidates for the 'Mozart' theme. In short, Mozart definitely learned the'Magic Flute' motif from two and possibly more than two Clementi sources before he wrote the Magic Flute overture. Clementi seems to have been a rich source of motivic and thematic material to quite a number of late 18th century/early 19th century composers.

Which make Mozart's condescending judgements on Clementi's style all the more interesting, don't they?
I think that there can hardly be any doubt that Mozart "borrowed" this motif from Clementi's op. 24/2 for his own Zauberflöte: http://www.frank.dds.nl/Etc/Clementi_3.mp3

[Frankli]

Originally posted by Rod:
Thanks for these Frankli. Your track 2 clearly displays a similar 4-note motif, but I bet you could find a dozen more, as this is such an obvious rhetorical gesture. Have you heard Beethoven's two movement piano duet Op6 (I can provide a WMA)? The first movement here too has the four note motif that is repeated a step higher and developed later on. This was composed around 1796. Do you think Beethoven would have robbed Clementi for this little piece? And if so have you wondered who Clementi robbed get the theme? Did Beethoven even have access to Clementi's score in 1796? Where does it end? Do we do this for every theme of every piece? This kind of thing unfortunately became an industry for Handel commentators for example, but these people just don't get it.

With your track 1 if find it harder to see the connection with the Pathetique. Beethoven is far more concise.

If I am right Clementi's early works were widely available - he was a publisher himself - so I bet that Beethoven knew them well. And some years later Breitkopf wrote to Beethoven that they had reprinted most of Clementi's piano works, so they belonged to the standard repertoire.
Besides, Beethoven expressed his admiration for the older composer more than one time, and the influence from Clementi on Beethoven is clear, just like Mozart, Dussek, and many others provided him with ideas for his musical development.

I do agree on op.6 (composed 1 or 2 years after the discussed Clementi sonata) up to a point, though the treatment of the material in the 5th Symphony strikes me much more when compared with Clementi's sonata. It is true that we cannot tell how Beethoven's style would have developed without the influence from Clementi; sometimes people invent the wheel independent from each other.

My (and Picasso's) point about geniuses is that they often "borrow" ideas and motifs from lesser artists, and use them to create something superior with it. No shame if Beethoven, Mozart, and others plagiarized a musical idea here and there; no man is an island, entire of itself!