Did Beethoven ever see the Sea ?

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
In addition to other errors you make, 1783 Cramer referes to the Dressler variations. A copy of the sonatas WoO47 contains the note in Beethoven's hand "These sonatas and variations of Dressler are my first works."

Well I warned Robert, to his face, that there were no mysteries or conspiracies with these early Beethoven pieces, and that he would only come to grief should he come up with any radical notions about this composer.

Believe me Robert, if there were any mysteries of the slightest significance about this music we would have discussed it long before you appeared at this site.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-10-2006).]

[robert newman]

Hello Rod,

I'm not sure that 'mysteries' or 'conspiracies' are appropriate terms yet for either of us to be using. I am simply asking on what factual basis (if any) it is claimed that Beethoven wrote and had published the Dressler variations in 1782 (at the age of 12) and on what factual basis it is claimed that Beethoven wrote and had published (with a dedication to the Elector Max Friedrich) the 3 sonatas said to have been published in 1783.

The issue here seems to be one of dates. Until I see evidence that the Dressler variations were published in 1782 as a work by Beethoven, and until I see the same for the 3 Sonatas of 1783 (complete with its dedication to Max Friedrich) I think I am on safer ground to say the available evidence indicates both works were written after the start of 1785 and before 1789. Am I being reasonable in asking for evidence ?

[robert newman]

Dear Peter,

You write that the Dressler variations by Beethoven are refered to in Cramer in 1783. Is publication of these same variations refered to in the same article ?

(You are refering to the Cramer of March 1783, yes ? If I'm not mistaken that article was written by Ch G Neefe and it contains the first printed reference to Beethoven - yes ?)

I do not have the full text of that article here. (I have only a long section that deals with Captain D'Anthoine, resident of Bonn, cousin of Luchesi, who is credited with writing 'Haydn' style symphonies).

So the question remains - does Cramer confirm in March 1783 that the Dressler variations have been published in Beethoven's name ? Does he speak of a dedication to Max Friedrich in the sonatas of that same year? Does he tell us the name of any music publisher ? If'yes' to all these points I will of course accept the traditional date for the Dressler variations and even for the sonatas.



[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 08-10-2006).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by robert newman:
..and until I see the same for the 3 Sonatas of 1783 (complete with its dedication to Max Friedrich) I think I am on safer ground to say the available evidence indicates both works were written after the start of 1785 and before 1789. Am I being reasonable in asking for evidence ?

But Rob I suggest it is impossible on purely musical grounds alone, you don't even need to worry about anything else. There is an obvious stylistic progression with these early Beethoven pieces and the status quo fits the situation nicely as far as I can see/hear.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:
Dear Peter,

You write that the Dressler variations by Beethoven are refered to in Cramer in 1783. Is publication of these same variations refered to in the same article ?

(You are refering to the Cramer of March 1783, yes ? If I'm not mistaken that article was written by Ch G Neefe and it contains the first printed reference to Beethoven - yes ?)

I do not have the full text of that article here. (I have only a long section that deals with Captain D'Anthoine, resident of Bonn, cousin of Luchesi, who is credited with writing 'Haydn' style symphonies).

So the question remains - does Cramer confirm in March 1783 that the Dressler variations have been published in Beethoven's name ? Does he speak of a dedication to Max Friedrich in the sonatas of that same year? Does he tell us the name of any music publisher ? If'yes' to all these points I will of course accept the traditional date for the Dressler variations and even for the sonatas.

[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 08-10-2006).]

He states that he had the variations published in Mannheim in order to 'encourage Beethoven'. I have already provided a link that shows the cover of the first edition published by Gotz of Mannheim. Perhaps now Robert you will acknowledge that Beethoven was composing music as early as 1782/3?

You still haven't provided the WoO for the Cressener cantata which you claim scholars list as a Beethoven work!

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'Man know thyself'



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 08-11-2006).]

[robert newman]

Dear Peter,

You've given a first class case for Beethoven being a composer by the year 1782/3. I would normally not risk your displeasure by taking this matter further. But I feel I can't let it go without a few comments.

The period May 1782 to May 1784 is in my view one of the most fascinating in the whole history of western classical music and one I have tried to read as much as I can about. Around this period so much happens (including, so we are to believe) Beethoven becoming a publicly recognised composer. It's an important time for Mozart too - the last before he begins his catalogue of works in Vienna.

You mention Mannheim. Well, the orchestra moves with the elector to Munich by 1784 from Mannehim. But my good 'friend' Abbe Vogler is at Mannheim in charge of the Tonschule - the same Abbe Vogler I have previously suggested (elsewhere) was involved with Mozart/Haydn/Luchesi. Now, if we are to accept the evidence, Beethoven's work is first published at Manneheim at a time when Vogler is the man in charge of music teaching there - the same time when Beethoven is a student at Bonn. It is curious that the Dressler variations come to Mannheim at this time for their publication. (We also know from later years that Vogler maintained contact with Beethoven in Bonn).

I concede this to you Peter. There is clear evidence that (at least as Manneheim is concerned) Beethoven wrote the Dressler variations and they were published there. Around 1782. But this same period is like an onion with many skins. I do not entirely trust anything that has the possibility of having had Abbe Vogler's involvement in it.

But I leave it there and won't pursue this further here. Thanks very much for confirming the case on which the traditional dating is based.

[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 08-11-2006).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:
Dear Peter,

You've given a first class case for Beethoven being a composer by the year 1782/3. I would normally not risk your displeasure by taking this matter further. But I feel I can't let it go without a few comments.

The period May 1782 to May 1784 is in my view one of the most fascinating in the whole history of western classical music and one I have tried to read as much as I can about. Around this period so much happens (including, so we are to believe) Beethoven becoming a publicly recognised composer. It's an important time for Mozart too - the last before he begins his catalogue of works in Vienna.

You mention Mannheim. Well, the orchestra moves with the elector to Munich by 1784 from Mannehim. But my good 'friend' Abbe Vogler is at Mannheim in charge of the Tonschule - the same Abbe Vogler I have previously suggested (elsewhere) was involved with Mozart/Haydn/Luchesi. Now, if we are to accept the evidence, Beethoven's work is first published at Manneheim at a time when Vogler is the man in charge of music teaching there - the same time when Beethoven is a student at Bonn. It is curious that the Dressler variations come to Mannheim at this time for their publication. (We also know from later years that Vogler maintained contact with Beethoven in Bonn).

I concede this to you Peter. There is clear evidence that (at least as Manneheim is concerned) Beethoven wrote the Dressler variations and they were published there. Around 1782. But this same period is like an onion with many skins. I do not entirely trust anything that has the possibility of having had Abbe Vogler's involvement in it.

But I leave it there and won't pursue this further here. Thanks very much for confirming the case on which the traditional dating is based.

[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 08-11-2006).]

Well I suppose that's an acknowledgement of sorts Robert - thank you! I think you should however also concede that you misrepresented the facts surrounding the Cressener cantata - it is not listed in WoO, one of your 'crystal clear facts'.

Perhaps this should also lead you to question your heavy reliance on C.53 as evidence, and perhaps to accept the evidence of ears as well as eyes.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

The 3 sonatas, although bearing the Beethovenian stamp, are relatively primitive compared to the piano quartets or the flute & bassoon trio which Beethoven composed around the age of 15/16. If you could prove the sonatas were composed AFTER these pieces I would be absolutely astonished. Fortunately this will not occur because it is impossible. You see we have only so many years to play with for these pieces Rob.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-12-2006).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Fidelio:
Research shows that this trip occured in late 1783 and not what Thayer thought was 1781.

Yes Fidelio this fact slipped my memory, and interestingly Beethoven's age is given correctly as 12 years old in Nov 1783 at a concert in the Hague, implying that he was aware of his true birth year.

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'Man know thyself'

[robert newman]

Well Peter, as I see it this missing Cressner cantata was definitely attibuted to Beethoven after his death. And, what's more, it is certainly found in lists of Beethoven works by Hess and others. It even appears in the 5th Edition of Groves as you know and is refered to in the Beethoven Encyclopaedia as a work by Beethoven. In view of this track record (whether or not the attribution is correct) I feel justified in saying it was regarded as his and has been commented on as his for a very long time. The fact that the general belief is now that this Cressner cantata was not by Beethoven merely begs the question of who (reasonably) wrote it.

For you to suggest that I have not been 'crystal clear' in pointing out this record of attribution on the piece seems to me a bit unfair. But no matter.

[Rod]

Originally posted by robert newman:

The fact that the general belief is now that this Cressner cantata was not by Beethoven merely begs the question of who (reasonably) wrote it.

At best this issue is a rather redundant one considering frustratingly the music no longer exists. At worst, in addition to this fact the chances are it was most likely not composed by Beethoven makes this just another of the 1000s of obscure pieces composed at the time that never asked for, nor deserve, our attention.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-12-2006).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
At best this issue is a rather redundant one considering frustratingly the music no longer exists. At worst, in addition to this fact the chances are it was most likely not composed by Beethoven makes this just another of the 1000s of obscure pieces composed at the time that never asked for, nor deserve, our attention.

Absolutely Rod - you've put it better than I did. It seemed to me that Robert was making something out of nothing, again!


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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Well Peter, as I see it this missing Cressner cantata was definitely attibuted to Beethoven after his death. And, what's more, it is certainly found in lists of Beethoven works by Hess and others. It even appears in the 5th Edition of Groves as you know and is refered to in the Beethoven Encyclopaedia as a work by Beethoven. In view of this track record (whether or not the attribution is correct) I feel justified in saying it was regarded as his and has been commented on as his for a very long time. The fact that the general belief is now that this Cressner cantata was not by Beethoven merely begs the question of who (reasonably) wrote it.

For you to suggest that I have not been 'crystal clear' in pointing out this record of attribution on the piece seems to me a bit unfair. But no matter.

Since the 1950s when these catalogues were made several errors even in Kinsky have been identified.

If you look at Cooper you will get a much more up to date appraisal of the lists and he identifies works now considered spurious. Cooper does not list the work and I don't think Thayer refers to it either.

Hess included many things in his catalogue, including attributions and unfinished pieces. Kinsky did not include Cressener in WoO and where he thought a work was spurious it was listed as Anh such as the 2 sonatinas.

As far as I am aware, a new complete edition of Beethoven works is in progress. All this indicates an ongoing desire to establish an accurate account of Beethoven's work, something I would have thought you would welcome, instead of implying that scholars blindly accept the status quo.

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'Man know thyself'