Did Beethoven ever see the Sea ?

[robert newman]

Would it be correct to say that both JS Bach and Beethoven belong to a very small group of composers who never saw the sea ?

[Peter]

Possibly he saw the North Sea on his trip in 1781 to Rotterdam? On another note Debussy's La Mer has to be the greatest evocation of the ocean!

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'Man know thyself'

[PDG]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Would it be correct to say that both JS Bach and Beethoven belong to a very small group of composers who never saw the sea ?

Great question, Robert. It would seem not despite his great affection for all things of natural beauty. Who knows what he would have made of a conch shell? Especially if one of his quacks had recommended it as a hearing aid!

Of course he did see the C in works such as the first symphony.....

[PDG]

Originally posted by Peter:
On another note Debussy's La Mer has to be the greatest evocation of the ocean!

Nah, has to be The Beatles' Yellow Submarine.

[Nightklavier]

Originally posted by Peter:
On another note Debussy's La Mer has to be the greatest evocation of the ocean!

I think Glazunov's Symphonic Poem "The Sea" stands shoulder-to-shoulder as a rival, too, and especially if it's played on two pianos.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Nightklavier:
I think Glazunov's Symphonic Poem "The Sea" stands shoulder-to-shoulder as a rival, too, and especially if it's played on two pianos.

I don't know this work, so thanks for pointing it out - I'll look into it!

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'Man know thyself'

[JA Gardiner]

I think Mendelssohn's Hebrides overture does it more for me, I can actually visualise and feel the spray and the crash of the waves. Vaughan Williams Sea Symphony is also good like that and just about everything by Benjamin Britten has a salt tang to it, with Billy Budd of course being pre eminent. And then of course no Brit of a certain age can hear the theme from Katchaturian's Spartacus without thinking of the Onedin Line!.....

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Beethoven the Man!

[HaydnFan]

I suppose Haydn did not see the sea until his first trip to London when he was already an old man.

What about Schubert? Did he even have the opportunity to look out on the ocean?

[robert newman]

Good question HadynFan. Schubert of course visited Hungary near the end of his life though Hungary has no ports. He could not have seen the sea from there. Despite this I note in passing that Hungary is today (bizzarely) being prosecuted by the European Community for failing to implement a number of European Directives on Maritime Safety ! She (like landlocked Slovakia) are liable for hefty fines (the argument being that the flag of both countries is used on some ships worldwide). Long live the Swiss Navy !

(Guess Schubert must join Beethoven and Bach in this little club of landlocked great composers).

[Fidelio]

Originally posted by Peter:
Possibly he saw the North Sea on his trip in 1781 to Rotterdam? On another note Debussy's La Mer has to be the greatest evocation of the ocean!

Research shows that this trip occured in late 1783 and not what Thayer thought was 1781.

[robert newman]

If Beethoven travelled to Holland in late 1783 with his mother it would be very interesting to see who was left to run the church music and the ordinary teaching of music at Bonn chapel during that time. Those missing from their normal posts at Bonn during 1783 would therefore seem to have included -

1. Ch.G Neefe (travelling with the theatre group attached to Bonn chapel)
2. Ludwig van Beethoven (in Holland) ?
3. Kapellmeister Luchesi (definitely on 1 year extended leave in Italy)
4. G.Mattioli - Orchestral Leader/First Violin (definitely also in Italy)

To say that this would have thrown the chapel music in to some confusion seems to be something of an understatement. Perhaps this caused a rift with the Kapellmeister when he and Mattioli returned in early 1784 ?

[PDG]

Originally posted by robert newman:

If Beethoven travelled to Holland in late 1783 with his mother it would be very interesting to see who was left to run the church music and the ordinary teaching of music at Bonn chapel during that time. Those missing from their normal posts at Bonn during 1783 would therefore seem to have included -

1. Ch.G Neefe (travelling with the theatre group attached to Bonn chapel)
2. Ludwig van Beethoven (in Holland) ?
3. Kapellmeister Luchesi (definitely on 1 year extended leave in Italy)
4. G.Mattioli - Orchestral Leader/First Violin (definitely also in Italy)

I'm impressed, Robert. Were they booking their holidays through you?!

[Fidelio]

Originally posted by robert newman:

If Beethoven travelled to Holland in late 1783 with his mother it would be very interesting to see who was left to run the church music and the ordinary teaching of music at Bonn chapel during that time. Those missing from their normal posts at Bonn during 1783 would therefore seem to have included -

1. Ch.G Neefe (travelling with the theatre group attached to Bonn chapel)
2. Ludwig van Beethoven (in Holland) ?
3. Kapellmeister Luchesi (definitely on 1 year extended leave in Italy)
4. G.Mattioli - Orchestral Leader/First Violin (definitely also in Italy)

To say that this would have thrown the chapel music in to some confusion seems to be something of an understatement. Perhaps this caused a rift with the Kapellmeister when he and Mattioli returned in early 1784 ?

I believe that with the end of the theater season and the Elector's departure for Münster in June, 1783, the harpsichordist's duties ended and everyone was free to do whatever.......Beethoven returned to composing.

[robert newman]

Dear Fidelio,

You suggest that after June 1783 Beethoven 'returned to composing'. I wonder if you might share evidence of Beethoven being credited in Bonn as a composer prior to June 1783 ? He is certainly not described as a composer in the court records of the following year, 1784. Or are you assuming he had written the funeral cantata for George Cressner by that date (perhaps ?)

[Fidelio]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Dear Fidelio,

You suggest that after June 1783 Beethoven 'returned to composing'. I wonder if you might share evidence of Beethoven being credited in Bonn as a composer prior to June 1783 ? He is certainly not described as a composer in the court records of the following year, 1784. Or are you assuming he had written the funeral cantata for George Cressner by that date (perhaps ?)

Robert, without a little 'research' (which i think will prove frutless), I cannot recall any such evidence existing. Although, you could perhaps quote the article which Neefe submitted to Cramers Magazin der Musik on 2 March 1783 as 'evidence' as a very poor example of such (reading between the lines). In 1783, as you know, Beethoven had some minor efforts such as a song 'Schilderung eines Madchens' WoO 107 and a rondo in C, WoO 48 for piano and an Organ fugue, WoO 31.

The three piano sonatas, WoO 47 were published by Bossler in Speyer in October, 1783.