Did Beethoven ever see the Sea ?

[robert newman]

Dear Fidelio,

There is surely doubt that by 1783 Beethoven wrote the small pieces to which you refer. (The grounds for doubting this are that on his arrival in Vienna these small works are the only ones acknowledged to be his. We have documentary references to them - one of these being the catalogue C53.1 at Modena and another in correspondence from Vienna made after Beethoven's arrival there - but these small works (not the 'sonatas') were actually listed at Bonn far closer to 1790 and not during 1783 or any year close that date). In short, these early works come from closer to 1790.

As far as the '3 sonatas' you refer to (supposedly written by him in 1783) things are surely far less clear.

If these 3 'sonatas' are really by Beethoven (and I am truly open to the possibility) why is it they are not regarded as Sonatas 1,2 and 3 of Beethoven ? Secondly, where are the original autographs of these works ? And thirdly, what reliable evidence have we that they were published in Beethoven's name during 1783 ?

You see, the reason I have some doubt about all this is that the Kapellmeister at Bonn was the first person to have music published at Bonn itself. If Bonn published music at this time from those involved with Bonn chapel why would these 3 'Beethoven' sonatas not have been published there ?

I do not say that Beethoven did not write these 3 works but you see that the first sonatas attributed to him have until now always been the Op.2 set from 1793-5, fully a decade later.

Finally, had Beethoven published sonatas in 1783 it is strange that the Cramer article to which you refer does not specifically refer to this in its article when it mentions the young Beethoven that very year.

Regards


[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 08-09-2006).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by robert newman:

As far as the '3 sonatas' you refer to (supposedly written by him in 1783) things are surely far less clear.

These sonatas are Beethoven's. No more needs to be said really.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Fidelio]

Originally posted by robert newman:
Dear Fidelio,

There is surely doubt that by 1783 Beethoven wrote the small pieces to which you refer. (The grounds for doubting this are that on his arrival in Vienna these small works are the only ones acknowledged to be his. We have documentary references to them - one of these being the catalogue C53.1 at Modena and another in correspondence from Vienna made after Beethoven's arrival there - but these small works (not the 'sonatas') were actually listed at Bonn far closer to 1790 and not during 1783 or any year close that date). In short, these early works come from closer to 1790.

As far as the '3 sonatas' you refer to (supposedly written by him in 1783) things are surely far less clear.

If these 3 'sonatas' are really by Beethoven (and I am truly open to the possibility) why is it they are not regarded as Sonatas 1,2 and 3 of Beethoven ? Secondly, where are the original autographs of these works ? And thirdly, what reliable evidence have we that they were published in Beethoven's name during 1783 ?

You see, the reason I have some doubt about all this is that the Kapellmeister at Bonn was the first person to have music published at Bonn itself. If Bonn published music at this time from those involved with Bonn chapel why would these 3 'Beethoven' sonatas not have been published there ?

I do not say that Beethoven did not write these 3 works but you see that the first sonatas attributed to him have until now always been the Op.2 set from 1793-5, fully a decade later.

Finally, had Beethoven published sonatas in 1783 it is strange that the Cramer article to which you refer does not specifically refer to this in its article when it mentions the young Beethoven that very year.

Regards


[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 08-09-2006).]

Wow.....great questions......

I think we know that the beginning of Beethoven second decade was the time that his career as a musician began to establish itself.

Beethoven’s musical abilities were recognised so that he become assistant court organist at the electoral court in 1782, ‘cembalist’ in the orchestra in 1785 and received official appointment as deputy court organist in June 1784. Do these events mark the beginning of this ‘first period’ as a composer?

I think it is safe to say that Beethoven’s first known compositions (already mentioned) were produced under Neefe’s guidance. The variations, sonatas and lieder were quickly published, highlighting Beethoven’s young age. I guess that Neefe also arranged the publication. Sonatas at the time were usually published in sets of 3 or 6. Bossler published the works. In 1779 he invented a machine for engraving music, which both speeded up the process and improved its quality. In 1782 Bossler launched a weekly publication, Blumenlese für Klavierliebhaber in which he printed songs and piano music written by south German composers. Perhaps Bossler was the only publisher willing to print them or pay a fee….if a fee was paid!?? Perhaps Neefe was looking for maximum publicity for the young Beethoven.

Looking at the evidence, apart from these compositions, not a single one of the 30 odd later Bonn pieces can, with certainty, be placed in the second half of the 1780’s. As you know, no surviving autograph bears a date between 1785 and 1790.

As you say, the dates of Beethoven’s Bonn compositions are not exactly known, however, the absence of such documentation does not prove that none of them belongs to that period.

Beethoven’s dedicatory letter for the WoO 47 sonatas describe them as being ‘first-fruits of my youthful works’ and they were evidently his first substantial product. However Beethoven annotated his own copy of the volume, emphasising that they were not his first work……’even before this work there appeared my Variations in C minor, as also songs in a Bossler journal. (This copy is now in the British Library).

Later in Vienna, most opus numbers were chosen by Beethoven, several letters survive in which he tells various publishers what Opus numbers to assign to particular works. Beethoven regarded many works as to slight to be given opus numbers, so they were classified as WoO…..etc. It is unlikely that the young Beethoven decided this with these works!!

[Rod]

Originally posted by Fidelio:
Wow.....great questions......

I said no more needs to be said!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[PDG]

Originally posted by Rod:
I said no more needs to be said!

What was that you said?

[robert newman]

I will let this matter rest here. In my view these 3 works may well be Beethoven's but I still think they were written not at the age of 13 but some years later. Certainly, the catalogue C53.1 (which records new music at Bonn chapel from late 1784 onwards and which does so up until around the time of Beethoven's departure for Vienna suggests Beethoven first composed from only around late 1784 onwards, not before). C53.1 records music by 'Mozart', for example, something that was not recorded as being at Bonn during the early part of 1784.

I do think it fair to regard Beethoven as having begun his compositional career shortly afterwards - i.e. from around 1785 at the earliest.

But thanks for the exchange of opinions.

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:

I do think it fair to regard Beethoven as having begun his compositional career shortly afterwards - i.e. from around 1785 at the earliest.

But thanks for the exchange of opinions.

The sonatas were published in 1783 with a dedication to Maximilian freidrich! What about other works such as the Dressler variations published in 1782?


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'Man know thyself'

[robert newman]

Dear Peter,

You write,

'The sonatas were published in 1783 with a dedication to Maximilian Freidrich! What about other works such as the Dressler variations published in 1782?'

Firstly, let me repeat if I may (since this may be forgotten) that I have no great opposition to these works being attributed to Beethoven. We seem to be focusing on a fair question of whether Beethoven wrote these 'sonatas' and the Dressler variations around 1782/3 etc. or whether he wrote them closer to 1790.

You present a powerful case for an earlier date for these 3 sonatas by saying their dedication was made to the electoral Prince Archbishop Maximilian (a man who undoubtedly died on 15th April 1784 and who was succeeded by Max Franz). Fine, I will try to deal with this dedication in a minute but I think there are actually a series of problems which appear to have dogged studies of many early works of Beethoven at Bonn. The problems are basically of two kinds -

1. Whether all works attributed to Beethoven during his time at Bonn were really of his own composition

and/or

2. Whether such works (or those which are agreed to be his) were written at the dates traditionally given to them.

Now, as far as the 3 Sonatas are concerned, you think the available evidence (of the dedication to Max Friedrich) proves beyond reasonable doubt that they were composed by Beethoven and that they were presented to him during his lifetime - i.e. prior to April of 1784. I would like to deal with this first.

It is your view therefore that by the time Max Friedrich died in that April of 1784 Beethoven was already the published composer of at least 2 works, the Dressler Variations and this set of 3 piano sonatas - yes ?

I have to admit that under normal circumstances it would be churlish to doubt this. But may I suggest that the circumstances are not really normal in a number of ways -

1. If these 3 sonatas were really dedicated by Beethoven himself to Max Friedrich and had been composed by 1783 would they not have been published in Bonn by Bonn as compositions of the 13 year old composer ? (Over a decade earlier various works by the Kapellmeister were the earliest musical works published by Bonn). Surely, such a set of 3 youthful sonatas by Beethoven would have been published by the Bonn printer, especially in view of their dedication to the Elector (?)
And yet, it seems, they were not published in Bonn.

2. If the Dressler Variations were already published by 1783 (again by a publisher outside of Bonn) why were they not published in Bonn ?

3. If the above 3 sonatas and also the Dressler Variations were in print by the 13 year old Beethoven shortly after their composition (one of them dedicated to the Elector himself) how is it that in 1783 the article in the Cramer Magazine of that year says nothing of Beethoven being a composer ? Surely, in view of such a dedication, this is unusual, is it not ?

Let me touch on another related issue. The disappearance of the autographs of these 3 early sonatas, the fact that they (despite apparently being a clear case of Beethoven writing/publishing sonatas etc) are not in themselves sufficient reason for those works to be considered as Sonatas 1, 2 and 3 of the Beethoven canon of sonatas ?

And there is another issue. Works without opus number such as the (missing) funeral cantata attributed to Beethoven and said to have been composed for the English envoy Cressner - this supposedly around the same time as the Dressler Variations and these sonatas.

Again, if Beethoven wrote the Cressner cantata it's strange nothing from Bonn speaks of this youth being a composer at this time or any other.

Let me add still more circumstantial evidence that the accepted dates are wrong. You know of course these two hotly disputed cantatas for the death of the Emperor and for the accession of his successor. If Beethoven was already known at Bonn chapel as a composer on these grounds alone why did the Bonn Literary Society not name him as an acknowledged composer at the time when those works were supposedly commissioned from him ?

Now, it seems clear that various works today assumed to have been written by Beethoven before 1783 may not have been composed by him by this time despite the fact that the dedication you refer to appears to show conclusively the opposite.

There are a string of questions about these works that are not resolved merely by the fact they are said to have been dedicated by Beethoven himself.

If the young man had really finished these works by 1784 and was already an acknowledged composer he appears to have written virtually nothing between then and the time he finally came to live in Vienna. Yet he, the 'acknowledged composer' seems to have spent virtually a further 6 years in Bonn.

I think the available evidence (especially that from the catalogue kept by the chapel from 1785 onwards and which contains amongst other things reference to 3 works having been written by Beethoven including a fugue) suggests such works were really written only from around that time onwards(i.e. from roughly around 1785 onwards) but not before. And therefore the 3 sonatas were not really written for Max Friedrich and nor were the Dressler Variations composed during the lifetime of Max Friedrich.

The fact that these and other works without opus number have somehow 'become' evidence of Beethoven as a composer prior to 1784 may be as much due to later enthusiasm for Beethoven's legacy as anything else. Somehow, errors were made and these works were wrongly attributed as regards their date to him which he, in fact, wrote years later, i.e. closer to 1789/90.

I cannot explain how the written dedication to Max Friedrich exists for these 3 sonatas. I can only say the disappearance of the autograph (and of the alleged'dedication') are as strange as all the other points.

So, while I accept Beethoven's authorship of these 3 sonatas and of the Dressler Variations I think they were composed some time between 1785 and approximately 1788 - i.e. not long before the young man leaves for Vienna to study with Haydn etc.



[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 08-10-2006).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by robert newman:


So, while I accept Beethoven's authorship of these 3 sonatas and of the Dressler Variations I think they were composed some time between 1785 and approximately 1788 - i.e. not long before the young man leaves for Vienna to study with Haydn etc.

I disagree, stylistically the 3 sonatas are blatantly earlier that 1785-88 if we consider the 3 piano quartets for example, which are much more advanced pieces. I think the status quo is correct, and for sure they are Beethoven's works, even a casual listen clarifies that.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:




So, while I accept Beethoven's authorship of these 3 sonatas and of the Dressler Variations I think they were composed some time between 1785 and approximately 1788 - i.e. not long before the young man leaves for Vienna to study with Haydn etc.

[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 08-10-2006).]

In Cramner 1783 Neefe states that he had given Beethoven instruction in composition and thorough bass, and he continues saying in time Beethoven could become another Mozart - presumably that implies he had written some things of merit?

The 3 sonatas are dedicated to Maximilian friedrich and were published in 1783, the Dressler variations in 1782. Until you can prove the publication dates as false, no more need be said.

No need to muddy the waters by introducing a work 'the Cressner cantata' which no Beethoven scholar contends was ever by Beethoven.

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'Man know thyself'

[robert newman]

So by the age of 13 Beethoven was already known as a composer ? The 3 sonatas (strangely never included in the canon of Beethoven sonatas) and also the Dressler variations. These were proof of him having publicly arrived as a oomposer. (To say nothing of other small works. Or even of the Cressner cantata, the two cantatas for the emperors etc).

The autograph manuscript of the 3 early sonatas seems to have disappeared. How unfortunate ! What about the autograph manuscript of the Dressler Variations ? Has this disappeared also ?

You say that the accepted dates can only be overthrown if it can be proved they are false. One of the ways we can examine this issue is to see on what real basis the 'accepted dates' are actually based. So far we have only traditional belief that Beethoven dedicated the 3 sonatas to Max Freidrich. Did he ??? What exactly is the evidence that he did so ? And what is the evidence that anyone published these 3 sonatas in Beethoven's name during 1783 ?

I will not 'muddy the water' with the Cressner cantata. That water was first muddied by traditionalists who (as you know) attributed its composition to Beethoven and who claimed he wrote it before he was a teenager. (It is still listed to this day amongst the compositions of Beethoven without opus number). Such facts are crystal clear.

It seems therefore that certain people back in the 19th century made a series of errors about 'Beethoven' works at Bonn, one of the results of which is to portray him (wrongly( as a composer by the time he was 13 years of age - a portayal I am simply asking of for verifiable support.

If the variations were really published in 1782 and the 3 sonatas in 1783 it ought to be very easy to resolve this issue.



[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 08-10-2006).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by robert newman:

So by the age of 13 Beethoven was already known as a composer ? The 3 sonatas (strangely never included in the canon of Beethoven sonatas) and also the Dressler variations.

Have you heard this music Robert?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[robert newman]

Yes Rod, I have. In fact I have seen a printed version of the 3 sonatas also and have (somewhere) the Dressler variations on vinyl.

[Rod]

Originally posted by robert newman:


Yes Rod, I have. In fact I have seen a printed version of the 3 sonatas also and have (somewhere) the Dressler variations on vinyl.

So how could you believe this music could have been written at the same time or later than the piano quartets?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:
So by the age of 13 Beethoven was already known as a composer ? The 3 sonatas (strangely never included in the canon of Beethoven sonatas) and also the Dressler variations. These were proof of him having publicly arrived as a oomposer. (To say nothing of other small works. Or even of the Cressner cantata, the two cantatas for the emperors etc).

The autograph manuscript of the 3 early sonatas seems to have disappeared. How unfortunate ! What about the autograph manuscript of the Dressler Variations ? Has this disappeared also ?

You say that the accepted dates can only be overthrown if it can be proved they are false. One of the ways we can examine this issue is to see on what real basis the 'accepted dates' are actually based. So far we have only traditional belief that Beethoven dedicated the 3 sonatas to Max Freidrich. Did he ??? What exactly is the evidence that he did so ? And what is the evidence that anyone published these 3 sonatas in Beethoven's name during 1783 ?

I will not 'muddy the water' with the Cressner cantata. That water was first muddied by traditionalists who (as you know) attributed its composition to Beethoven and who claimed he wrote it before he was a teenager. (It is still listed to this day amongst the compositions of Beethoven without opus number). Such facts are crystal clear.

It seems therefore that certain people back in the 19th century made a series of errors about 'Beethoven' works at Bonn, one of the results of which is to portray him (wrongly( as a composer by the time he was 13 years of age - a portayal I am simply asking of for verifiable support.

If the variations were really published in 1782 and the 3 sonatas in 1783 it ought to be very easy to resolve this issue.

[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 08-10-2006).]

In addition to other errors you make, 1783 Cramer referes to the Dressler variations. A copy of the sonatas WoO47 contains the note in Beethoven's hand "These sonatas and variations of Dressler are my first works." He goes on "Before these works, however songs and a set of variations in C minor appeared in an issue of Bossler's Journal". He dates the variations 1781, incorrect yes, but he obviously knew they were written very early and not as late as you claim.

As to autograph scores you will be aware that most of the early Beethoven autographs have disappeared. You will also be aware that even significant later works such as the Hammerklavier and Moonlight sonatas have missing autographs. Do you challenge the authorship and dates of these on the same basis?

Could you provide me with the WoO of Cressener cantata?

Perhaps you'd like to check out these two links to view the title pages of the first editions for yourself. You will need to copy the links as they haven't appeared correctly, then paste and search.

http://www.beethoven-haus-bonn.de/si...20Ludwig%20van %20Beethoven&_seite=1

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http://www.beethoven-haus-bonn.de/si...20Ludwig%20van %20Beethoven&_seite=1

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'Man know thyself'



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 08-10-2006).]