"Eroica" (Funeral March)

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Frankli:

I don't have that many, since these works have often been forgotten. Better known example is the opera Achille by Paër (the composer who wrote a Leonore before Beethoven did), which contains a funeral march.
There also was a periodical called Magasin de musique à l'usage des fêtes nationales, and naturally it contained funeral marches (and other pieces), because the Revolution was in need for music to be played during funerals of heroes. It is suggested that Beethoven knew this collection of revolutionary pieces, either directly or indirectly. My source, btw, is Thoma Sipe in his monography on the Third.
Of course Berlioz kept the genre alive with his Grande Symphonie Funèbre et Triomphale of 1840, and his Grande Messe des Morts.

May I point out that my pet research composer, Joachim Eggert, inserted a funeral march in his E-flat symphony in 1807. While Beethoven developed his Eroica funeral march into a full fledged movement, Eggert was satisfied with a short episode.

I have to admit that I never heard a single note by Eggert.
There is another not so well-known composer, however, who composed a highly original Sinfonia Funèbre, which starts with a dramatic funeral march of almost 10 minutes, followed by three other slow movements. His name: Joseph Martin Kraus (1756 - 1792). The symphony was composed in 1792, and was clearly influenced by the French revolutionary composers.

Dear Frankli;

Still, I do not see the multitude of examples of this popular French genre. I am sorry to say that I must rule out Paer, who was Italian and wrote "Achilles" in 1801 in Vienna! Nor do I see it copied extensively elsewhere. Ferdinand Ries inserted a funeral march in his first symphony (in D-major opus 23) that was definitely influenced by Beethoven's Eroica. And after Berlioz' "Funeral and Triumph," I can only name Mahler, who put a funeral march in nearly every symphony he wrote albeit he did not call them funeral marches.

I agree with you that Swedish music establishment was strongly influenced by the French school during Kraus' life time.


Hofrat

[Rod]

Originally posted by Rod:
It worked when I first uploaded it, however at the moment I cannot connect to the mysharefile website either. I assume they are having a temporary problem. Try the link later.

I've used Frankli's provider in the meantime, though I noticed after upload it's only good for 7 days or 100 downloads. http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.ph...6B38C30B0ED156

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Frankli]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
Dear Frankli;

Still, I do not see the multitude of examples of this popular French genre. I am sorry to say that I must rule out Paer, who was Italian and wrote "Achilles" in 1801 in Vienna! Nor do I see it copied extensively elsewhere. Ferdinand Ries inserted a funeral march in his first symphony (in D-major opus 23) that was definitely influenced by Beethoven's Eroica. And after Berlioz' "Funeral and Triumph," I can only name Mahler, who put a funeral march in nearly every symphony he wrote albeit he did not call them funeral marches.

You are right about Paër: he was an Italian, and "Achille, melodramma eroico" premiered in Vienna, which doesn't make it a very good example. Still, he himself was influenced by French music at that stage of his life, according to my encyclopedia.
Anyway, it is Constantin Floros who assumes that this funeral march, together with French revolutionary funeral marches, were the inspiration for Beethoven's Marcia Funebre.
I already wrote that I don't have many specific examples, and why. I found a few others though that have at least been some inspiration for Beethoven:
http://www.klassik-heute.de/texte/be...oica_480.shtml
Zahlreiche Features der Sinfonie ließen sich dahingehend erklären, daß Beethoven damit bei einem Pariser Publikum Eindruck machen wollte. So hat zum Beispiel Claude V. Palisca im Trauermarsch der Eroica nicht weniger als sieben in Paris wohlbekannte Revolutionsmusiken nachgewiesen, die Beethoven an verschiedener Stelle zitierte, namentlich von Gossec, Charpentier, Martini und Pleyel. Auch verschiedene Ideen der Instrumentation (Verwendung der Blechblasinstrumente) sprechen für diese Idee.

According to Sipe and others Beethoven was influenced by the French periodical that I mentioned, published between 1795-98 - no doubt funeral marches were one kind of music needed for French national days. And there is, of course, the important Marche Funebre by Gossec, whose influence, btw is even more clear on op. 26 than on op. 55.
In general, French music itself was influenced by the military style, and composers formerly writing galant music suddenly started to compose hymns, marches, and all kinds of wind music. I may cite this:
http://www.beethovenseroica.com/Pg3_anal/2mov/2m01.htm
For the second movement of the Eroica, Beethoven took the bold step of employing a funeral march (marcia funèbre). Though unique for a symphony, funeral marches were common in French revolutionary music of the period thus not unfamiliar to Beethoven's audiences.


For the rest, looking at the Eroica, the revolutionary and military influence is clear, especially in the first two movements. And after all, the work was originally named after a military person.

I agree with you that Swedish music establishment was strongly influenced by the French school during Kraus' life time.

Some more examples, though not all of them that obvious: http://www.klassik-heute.de/texte/be...oica_480.shtml
Die Marcia funebre der Eroica ist der erste Trauermarsch in einer Sinfonie. Von welch außergewöhnlicher Vorbild-Wirkung dieser kühne Schritt Beethovens auf seine Nachfolger war, zeigen zum Beispiel der Gang zum Richtplatz in Berlioz’ Symphonie Fantastique (1830), aber auch der zweite Satz in Schuberts Großer C-Dur-Sinfonie (1825/26), Mendelssohns Italienische (1834), einige Sinfonien Anton Bruckners – besonders die Vierte (1874), Sechste (1879/80) und Siebente (1881-83) – sowie auch Brahms vierte Sinfonie (1884-85).

A handful of Wikipedia examples: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Funeral_march
The Dead March from Saul by George Frideric Handel
The funeral march for piano written by Frédéric Chopin in 1837, which became the 3rd movement of his Piano Sonata No. 2 in B flat minor, op. 35 .
The Funeral March for the Final Scene of Hamlet by Hector Berlioz
The Marche funèbre second movement of Charles-Valentin Alkan's Symphony for solo piano, Op. 39 no. 5
Siegfried's Funeral March from Götterdämmerung by Richard Wagner
The Trauermarsch opening movement of Mahler's Symphony No. 5.
The ninth variation from Benjamin Britten's Variations on a Theme of Frank Bridge, Op. 10
The third movement of Mahler's first symphony, based on the children's song Frère Jacques.
The 2nd movement of Brahms' Deutsches Requiem utilizes the characteristics of a Funeral March but is in a slow triple metre.



[This message has been edited by Frankli (edited 08-06-2006).]

[Frankli]

Originally posted by Rod:
I've used Frankli's provider in the meantime, though I noticed after upload it's only good for 7 days or 100 downloads. http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.ph...6B38C30B0ED156

Very lovely piece. Thanks!

[Peter]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
Dear Franki;

I have often heard that, but when I look for these marchs, or French symphonies with a funeral march, I find only the Gossec. I admit that I am German music oriented and not well versed with French music. If the funeral march was such a popular genre in France, please list some examples for me.

May I point out that my pet research composer, Joachim Eggert, inserted a funeral march in his E-flat symphony in 1807. While Beethoven developed his Eroica funeral march into a full fledged movement, Eggert was satisfied with a short episode.


Hofrat

I think the French influence is beyond question, especialy when considering the circumstances surrounding this work. Don't forget that in 1802 Beethoven was seriously contemplating moving to Paris and the Eroica was to be dedicated to Bonaparte. In his own copy of the score Beethoven even went as far as to use the French version of his name 'Louis' instead of Ludwig.

Aside from Gossec, the other work most likely to have influenced Beethoven is Cherubini's Hymne funèbre sur la mort du Général Hoche.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Frankli:
Very lovely piece. Thanks!

It is interesting that Handel's March is in C major, so the feeling leans towards consolation rather than outright remorse. Of course Beethoven's varied treatment in the Eroica takes us through a whole gamut of emotions.

PS. the Handle march comes from the Naxos recording of Saul, which I can recommend.


------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-08-2006).]

[Hofrat]

Funeral marches were a popular French genre. Two examples were given. This leads to my first question: Does two compositions make up a genre?

And now my second question: Is this genre really French? Gossec was Belgium. Paer and Cherubini were Italians. Gluck and Beck were Germans. Pleyel was Austrian. All these composers lived and worked in France at the time of Eroica, but they were born and musically educated in "foreign lands." Most of them were called upon to write a "revolutionary" work. So, is it truly a French genre or were the seeds in Germany and Italy?


Hofrat

[Rod]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
Funeral marches were a popular French genre. Two examples were given. This leads to my first question: Does two compositions make up a genre?

And now my second question: Is this genre really French? Gossec was Belgium. Paer and Cherubini were Italians. Gluck and Beck were Germans. Pleyel was Austrian. All these composers lived and worked in France at the time of Eroica, but they were born and musically educated in "foreign lands." Most of them were called upon to write a "revolutionary" work. So, is it truly a French genre or were the seeds in Germany and Italy?

Hofrat

I dont think the question is really important. Handel was a German who was greatly influenced by the Italians and French, and then he wrote his Dead March for an English production. So which nation to you apply that to?


PS this chain prompted me to listen to Jordi Savall's fantastic recording of the Eroica, out of my strict sequence! You won't hear a better version than this.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-06-2006).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
Funeral marches were a popular French genre. Two examples were given. This leads to my first question: Does two compositions make up a genre?

And now my second question: Is this genre really French? Gossec was Belgium. Paer and Cherubini were Italians. Gluck and Beck were Germans. Pleyel was Austrian. All these composers lived and worked in France at the time of Eroica, but they were born and musically educated in "foreign lands." Most of them were called upon to write a "revolutionary" work. So, is it truly a French genre or were the seeds in Germany and Italy?


Hofrat

I never said Funeral marches were a popular French genre! The fact is that the two examples cited may have influenced Beethoven's March in the Eroica. In any case it was primarily the French Heroic style that influenced Beethoven and examples of this are the French operas by the Italian born Cherubini, especially Medee, Lodoiska, Faniska and Les deux Journees which had a direct bearing on Beethoven's own opera Fidelio, itself based on (the French) Bouilly's "Leonore".

Yes Cherubini was Italian born but he lived most of his life in Paris and contributed enormously to the development of French Grand Opera, producing 14 'French' operas. Gossec, Mehul, Gretry all spent the majority of their lives in France, indeed all of these now lie in Pere Lachaise.

The wider context of all this needs to be taken into account - the ramifications of the French Revolution throughout Europe and its dramatic influence on all artists, composers and writers.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 08-06-2006).]

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Peter:

The wider context of all this needs to be taken into account--the ramifications of the French Revolution throughout Europe and its dramatic influence on all artists, composers and writers.

Dear Peter;

Pleyel was assistant Kapellmeister under Richter in Strassburg, France from 1783 till 1789. Following Richter's death in 1789, Pleyel was Strassburg's principal Kapellmeister. In 1791, the French Revolution banned the performance of music in the church and in the concert hall. So, he accepted the position of music director of the Professional Concerts in London for the 1792 season. He returned to France only to be hounded by the French Revolution. He was labled an aristocrat and stripped of his position. During the course of 1793 he was denounced 7 times by various revolutionary tribunals. He "kept his head" by timely flights and hiding. He was arrested in the middle of the night and interrogated at great length about his opinions. In the end, he was compelled to compose the music for the revolutionary drama "10th of August" which he did in seven days and nights of uninterrupted labor while under guard in his own home.

I hope the other composers fared better during the French Revolution. "Liberty, Equality, Fraternity!!


Hofrat

[Peter]

Originally posted by Hofrat:

Dear Peter;

Pleyel was assistant Kapellmeister under Richter in Strassburg, France from 1783 till 1789. Following Richter's death in 1789, Pleyel was Strassburg's principal Kapellmeister. In 1791, the French Revolution banned the performance of music in the church and in the concert hall. So, he accepted the position of music director of the Professional Concerts in London for the 1792 season. He returned to France only to be hounded by the French Revolution. He was labled an aristocrat and stripped of his position. During the course of 1793 he was denounced 7 times by various revolutionary tribunals. He "kept his head" by timely flights and hiding. He was arrested in the middle of the night and interrogated at great length about his opinions. In the end, he was compelled to compose the music for the revolutionary drama "10th of August" which he did in seven days and nights of uninterrupted labor while under guard in his own home.

I hope the other composers fared better during the French Revolution. "Liberty, Equality, Fraternity!!


Hofrat

Well of course they were terrible times for many and composers were obviously no exception. The period we are dealing with though in regard to the Eroica is post revolution and there can be little doubt that the ideals of "Liberty, Equality, Fraternity" were still fresh in the mind of our composer in Vienna!


------------------
'Man know thyself'

[DavidO]

Originally posted by Rod:
PS this chain prompted me to listen to Jordi Savall's fantastic recording of the Eroica, out of my strict sequence! You won't hear a better version than this.

Jordi Savall, eh? I will look around for that recording. I always buy my Beethoven by recommendation.

The French heroic style played a big role in Beethoven's musical ideation, as just about everyone here has noted. Didn't the old French ouverture style also figure as an influence on Beethoven? I'm thinking, for example, of those grand, sweeping 16th-note scale fragments in the Introduction to the first movement of Symphony No. 1 as well as the Introduction of Symphony No. 2--grandiose, slow, stirring themes often based on dotted rhythms.

Did Beethoven know the music of Lully, or ever discuss Lully?

[Frankli]

Originally posted by Hofrat:

And now my second question: Is this genre really French? Gossec was Belgium. Paer and Cherubini were Italians. Gluck and Beck were Germans. Pleyel was Austrian. All these composers lived and worked in France at the time of Eroica, but they were born and musically educated in "foreign lands." Most of them were called upon to write a "revolutionary" work. So, is it truly a French genre or were the seeds in Germany and Italy?
Hofrat

It depends. Lully for example was an Italian, but he was the most important opera composer of France in the 17th century. Nobody would call him an Italian composer, despite the fact that he added certain Italian elements to the existing French opera.
Of course, the revolutionary music of France composed after 1789, consisting of heroic music, hymns, and marches, was a truly French genre, since it could only exist because of what happened in France in those years. So it was a matter of adapting to new circumstances, and composers like Cherubini and Gossec did that very well.
Btw Beethoven once called Cherubini the greatest living composer. Berlioz for sure had another opinion on Cherubini!

[gprengel]

I fully agree to those of you who said that the fugal section is one of the most inspiring pieces in the world of music - for me together with the other great Beethoven fugato in the development in the 1st mov. of the 9th symphony.

I made intensivly studies of the compositional process of this work which is presented in
http://www.unheardbeethoven.org/sear...?criteria=opus

Gerd

[Rod]

Originally posted by Frankli:
Berlioz for sure had another opinion on Cherubini!

Berlioz said of Handel that he is 'all beer and pork'!

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin