"Eroica" (Funeral March)

[PDG]

This March seems to me to be the new expressive dawn of classical music (good and bad), where all symphonies prior or subsequent are judged. There was an extraordinary impact on European society once this work became established. For a start, Beethoven became widely-famous. Then we have the New-Age E flat key. As a symphony, the Third's impact would not be equalled again until the Ninth. There is still a credible argument that the Eroica is the greatest symphony ever, and that the Funeral March is THE dominant movement within.

Opinions please?!

[Rod]

One could say the 9th is a hybrid in a class of its own. But one could say many of Beethoven's pieces are like that. Nevertheless if the 9th is a hybrid, then for sure the 3rd is the most perfect 'pure' symphony ever created.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Sorrano]

The first movement, as revolutionary as it was, was incredibly balanced even to the number of measures in each section--Exposition WITH the repeats, Development, and Recapitultion including the Coda. A very classical, traditional organization with such a dynamic content. Truly, nothing like it had ever been heard before.

PDG, it is an interesting thought you propose with respect to the second movement. I have to confess I am moved by that; you may be very correct!

[Peter]

Originally posted by PDG:
This March seems to me to be the new expressive dawn of classical music (good and bad), where all symphonies prior or subsequent are judged. There was an extraordinary impact on European society once this work became established. For a start, Beethoven became widely-famous. Then we have the New-Age E flat key. As a symphony, the Third's impact would not be equalled again until the Ninth. There is still a credible argument that the Eroica is the greatest symphony ever, and that the Funeral March is THE dominant movement within.

Opinions please?!

That march is extraordinary and totally original - I can't think of a funeral march appearing in a symphony before this, nor anything so powerful, dramatic and expressive. Beethoven's inspiration for this may have been the slow march which opens Cherubini's Hymne funèbre sur la mort du Général Hoche (1797). At any rate I'm certain the work of Mehul, Cherubini and Gossec was a great influence on Beethoven at this time.




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'Man know thyself'

[Michael]

"Written in heaven and then merely dictated to Beethoven".
That was Leonard Bernstein's comment on the Funeral March and I have always found it annoying because it totally disregards the sheer amount of blood, sweat and inspiration that went into the composition. Music lovers are always quick to use this dictation metaphor when talking about Mozart because he is perceived as a composer who received his music from "beyond" and didn't have to struggle with his compositions. They should take a look at the manuscript scores of his Haydn quartets. Mozart walked into a haymaker when he started these, and his alterations and scratchings are just like Beethoven's.
However, I don't want to change the subject here. I think the "Eroica" remained Beethoven's favourite symphony - even after the Ninth - and I personally find the central fugal section of the Funeral March the single most awe-inspiring passage in all music.

Michael


[This message has been edited by Michael (edited 08-05-2006).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Michael:
"Written in heaven and then merely dictated to Beethoven".

Yes it's not a very intelligent remark, if Bernstein was being serious. If so it's quite ignorant in fact. Bernstein should have been more concerned as to why the Gods never dictated anything of worth to himself.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Athea]

This march always affects me as an impressive and forceable piece with strong impact on every listener, with its intensive sections nearly inconceivable to listeners at that time. For me is Eroica (and especially Funeral March) one of the most magnificent Beethoven's works.

[Athea]

Originally posted by Michael:
I personally find the central fugal section of the Funeral March the single most awe-inspiring passage in all music.

If you mean the same passage as me...I agree...

[DavidO]

Originally posted by Peter:
That march is extraordinary and totally original - I can't think of a funeral march appearing in a symphony before this, nor anything so powerful, dramatic and expressive. Beethoven's inspiration for this may have been the slow march which opens Cherubini's Hymne funèbre sur la mort du Général Hoche (1797). At any rate I'm certain the work of Mehul, Cherubini and Gossec was a great influence on Beethoven at this time.

Robert Greenberg feels that Gossec's "Marche lugubre" was the principal inspiration for the "Eroica" 2nd mov't. I don't think I've ever heard the entire Gossec piece--only a very short excerpt.

[Frankli]

Originally posted by DavidO:
Robert Greenberg feels that Gossec's "Marche lugubre" was the principal inspiration for the "Eroica" 2nd mov't. I don't think I've ever heard the entire Gossec piece--only a very short excerpt.

The funeral march was a popular genre in France in those days, so it might not have been a particular piece that Beethoven was inspired by.
Anyway, he elevated his own "Marcia Funebre sulla morte d'un eroe" above the genre. The march by Gossec, for instance, is frightful here and there, but it's essentially a simple piece with hardly any development and no climax, like in Beethoven's march, which is an architectonic masterpiece.

For those who want to hear the Gossec march I uploaded it (mp3) to this place:
http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.ph...74AFE97A1EA049
Don't play it too soft; it should make you shiver!

Btw it's nice to compare Beethoven's Funeral March from the Eroica with his earlier one in op. 26, where the piano imitates the drums.

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Frankli:
The funeral march was a popular genre in France in those days, so it might not have been a particular piece that Beethoven was inspired by.

Dear Franki;

I have often heard that, but when I look for these marchs, or French symphonies with a funeral march, I find only the Gossec. I admit that I am German music oriented and not well versed with French music. If the funeral march was such a popular genre in France, please list some examples for me.

May I point out that my pet research composer, Joachim Eggert, inserted a funeral march in his E-flat symphony in 1807. While Beethoven developed his Eroica funeral march into a full fledged movement, Eggert was satisfied with a short episode.


Hofrat

[Rod]

Originally posted by Frankli:


Btw it's nice to compare Beethoven's Funeral March from the Eroica with his earlier one in op. 26, where the piano imitates the drums.

Here's one from Handel too! From the oratorio 'Saul':
http://www.mysharefile.com/v/2026091...March.wma.html

if the link doesn't work try this: http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.ph...6B38C30B0ED156

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-06-2006).]

[Frankli]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
Dear Franki;

I have often heard that, but when I look for these marchs, or French symphonies with a funeral march, I find only the Gossec. I admit that I am German music oriented and not well versed with French music. If the funeral march was such a popular genre in France, please list some examples for me.

I don't have that many, since these works have often been forgotten. Better known example is the opera Achille by Paër (the composer who wrote a Leonore before Beethoven did), which contains a funeral march.
There also was a periodical called Magasin de musique à l'usage des fêtes nationales, and naturally it contained funeral marches (and other pieces), because the Revolution was in need for music to be played during funerals of heroes. It is suggested that Beethoven knew this collection of revolutionary pieces, either directly or indirectly. My source, btw, is Thoma Sipe in his monography on the Third.
Of course Berlioz kept the genre alive with his Grande Symphonie Funèbre et Triomphale of 1840, and his Grande Messe des Morts.

May I point out that my pet research composer, Joachim Eggert, inserted a funeral march in his E-flat symphony in 1807. While Beethoven developed his Eroica funeral march into a full fledged movement, Eggert was satisfied with a short episode.

I have to admit that I never heard a single note by Eggert.
There is another not so well-known composer, however, who composed a highly original Sinfonia Funèbre, which starts with a dramatic funeral march of almost 10 minutes, followed by three other slow movements. His name: Joseph Martin Kraus (1756 - 1792). The symphony was composed in 1792, and was clearly influenced by the French revolutionary composers.

[Frankli]

Originally posted by Rod:
Here's one from Handel too! From the oratorio 'Saul':
http://www.mysharefile.com/v/2026091...March.wma.html

The link doesn't work here!

[Rod]

Originally posted by Frankli:
The link doesn't work here!

It worked when I first uploaded it, however at the moment I cannot connect to the mysharefile website either. I assume they are having a temporary problem. Try the link later.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin