Is there a possible photo of Beethoven?

[Athea]

Originally posted by Rod:
Not unless he was drugged. I suspect Beethoven was the kind of personality that could not be captured in print or paint.

Drugged Beethoven: it could be an impressive photo for the next generations

[Euan Mackinnon]

Michael

You write (27th July):

So you think that this: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Vi...ow_at_Le_Gras%
2C_Joseph_Nic%C3%A9phore_Ni%C3%A9pce.jpg
is a 'good quality picture'

With respect. this is a non-question (although there is no question mark at the end of your sentence, I assume you meant it as a question, albeit a rather ‘loaded’ one especially as you tagged the word ‘Interesting’ at the end.)

How can one say whether such a thing (as this photo) is ‘good’ or ‘bad’ or anything in between without also specifying the context within which it is to be judged?

I (we?) can only presume that since you are responding to Preston you are using the word ‘good’ to mean ‘good in comparison with what can be achieved today’. Self-evidently, a photo taken at the birth of photography cannot be judged ‘good’ compared with (say) your own (as published on the web).


Robert

You write (my emphasis):

It may be argued that we cannot improve upon an image once that image has been made but can only, at beat, produce a nearly identical copy of the original image. (This is the argument used to say that a recording of music from, say, 1902 on a disc may not ever sound as if it was recorded yesterday in a recording studio). But the copying of an image is not the same thing as correctly retrieving the original information on which that image was made. And so (it seems to me) there must be a chance that information can yet be found which, at present, is not accessible in recordings but which may become so by future discoveries.

I completely agree, indeed I would go further than simply improv[ing] upon an image once that image has been made . As you imply, I feel that it is perfectly possible – even probable – that techniques will emerge in due course that will allow some form equivalent to a ‘photograph’ to be produced, including one of Beethoven. Think, for example, of how forensic science has been further enhanced – even revolutionised – by DNA.

It all hinges on what is meant by ‘Information’. I have no doubt the ‘information’ is there; locating, understanding then interpreting it will arrive at some point.

Euan


[This message has been edited by Euan Mackinnon (edited 07-29-2006).]

[robert newman]

Yes Euan,

I have heard through a friend in London of studies made some years ago in Italy on 18th century musical manuscripts where it was found possible to see at what point the composer had dipped his pen in the ink to refill it.

Analysis of DNA from a lock of Beethoven's hair. And many other areas of research on paper itself.

I suppose we can describe much of the early history of photography as struggle to make permanent images. But temporary images may be routinely made in nature of which we are hardly aware and which may, in due course, be retrievable. Well, that's something much more exotic.

R

[Casey]

Originally posted by robert newman:

But temporary images may be routinely made in nature of which we are hardly aware and which may, in due course, be retrievable. Well, that's something much more exotic.

R

Sometimes when a coin like an old U.S. nickel is worn so bad that the date has been worn off completely and cannot be seen at all, there are chemicals that can be applied that retrieve the date, even though no date is left on the coin. Tomato ketchup works as well sometimes. It doesn't always last though. Learned this trick on old dateless U.S. buffalo nickels as a coin collector in the past.

I think it may be possible to do what you are suggesting. If someone will figure out out to do it is another matter though...

[robert newman]

Wow, that's interesting. Seems strange that a coin bearing no visible date should be able to provide one. But, as you say, this can be done.

[Michael]

Years ago, I read a science fiction story in which ancient sounds were retrieved from, of all things, a piece of pottery. I can barely remember the details but the theory was that ambient sounds of a bygone era were accidentally recorded on the pottery while it was spinning, and could be "played back" by spinning the artifact and using a special stylus or laser.
There was a note at the end of the story stating that real-life experiments of that nature were being carried out.
So who knows what unlikely images or sounds are locked in some way into ancient artifacts.

Michael

[Frankli]

And there is the story of the original recording by Chopin performing the Minute Waltz, which was found behind a wall in his house some years ago. The recording was made on a glass disk covered with smoke. It was an invention by a certain Hippolyte Sot done in the 1840's, who had not managed yet to discover a way to play his recordings back.
A great hoax it was, and many people believed it.
Happily, we DO have original photos of Chopin.

[Casey]

Yes that was a fraud, but the phonautograph came shortly after Chopin's death, in the mid to late 1850's. If someone can find a way to reproduce sound from those "recordings" it will be a wonderful discovery...

[robert newman]

Certainly, during Beethoven's lifetime, there was research in to sound. The earliest I can find reference to is from 1806 when the British medical doctor and naturalist Thomas Young was able to register the minute vibrations of a newly invented tuning fork on a rotating drum covered with wax.

[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 07-30-2006).]

[Frankli]

And wasn't Maelzel's panharmonicon the predecessor of our modern taperecorder?