Would Schubert's Music Have Surpassed Beethoven?

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
I have and whilst there are outstanding works amongst them, Schubert achieved far more in this genre! Lieder was the natural outlet for a composer whose gift was primarily melodic rather than structural. I don't expect you to agree. Out of Schubert's 600 odd songs is there one you consider equals the least worthy of Beethoven's? How for example do you rate works such as 'Die Junge Nonne', 'Ganymed', 'An Achwager Kronos', or 'Nacht und Traume'?

My point was that most of Beethoven's songs are unknown to the general music listening public. We just take it from scholars that Beethoven was not a song writer or even not a good song writer. Of course Schubert wrote far more songs than Beethoven (I think he only wrote about 80). So one could say by volume Schubert wrote more good songs than Beethoven, or maybe just more songs ho! ho! (Santa uses three).

Many of Beethoven's have no pretensions of being serious pieces in the mould of his sonatas and symphonies, but he did compose a fair number of songs worthy of serious consideration. I doubt if all 600 of Schubert's are works of art of the highest order, in fact I know this myself as I've heard quite a few.

Frankly I bet I could put a CD together of the Best from Beethoven's 80 (which I have) that would at the very least be a match for Schubert if you did the same from his 600. Many of the tunes that stick in my head come from Beethoven songs that nobody knows about.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-26-2006).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Lieder was the natural outlet for a composer whose gift was primarily melodic rather than structural.

This point reminds me of something that has perpexed me for a long time. Comentators have often pointed out Schubert's gift for melody as a positive aspect of his compositional style, which is fair enough. However I have seen Handel's similar propensity for melodic invention consitantly highlighted almost as a point for critisism, as though he is seducing solely the heart and not the mind.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Rod:
Have you heard any of Beethoven's songs?

Dear Rod;

Here is something interesting. In 1797, Beethoven sketched a setting for Goethe's "Erlkonig." It was completed in the 1880's by Reinhard Becker, and later revised by the guys on the Unheard Beethoven site (with the Unheard Beethoven version being closer to the sketches than the Becker version).

And if I am not mistaken (I am checking my sources), Schubert composed a setting for "An Freude."

So, we can compare two "Erlkonig" versions for sure.


Hofrat

[gprengel]

Dear Hofrat,

This completed Beethoven fragment of the Erlkoenig indeed is superb and somewhat reaches the level of Schubert (I am thinking of Schubert's awesome song "Der Zwerg"). Besides this I think only the cycle "An die ferne Geliebte" from 1816 can reach the depths of Schubert and above all to me the outstanding "Return to Ulster" from the Irish Songs WoO 152 (which I can send to anyone who is interested)

[PDG]

Originally posted by gprengel:
...and above all to me the outstanding "Return to Ulster" from the Irish Songs WoO 152 (which I can send to anyone who is interested)

Hello GP! I assume you are aware that Beethoven did not write the original music for these British & Irish folksongs. His contribution was merely to arrange them for simple piano trio. Although sometimes he did also offer variations to complement the pieces.

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by gprengel:
Dear Hofrat,

This completed Beethoven fragment of the Erlkoenig indeed is superb and somewhat reaches the level of Schubert (I am thinking of Schubert's awesome song "Der Zwerg"). Besides this I think only the cycle "An die ferne Geliebte" from 1816 can reach the depths of Schubert and above all to me the outstanding "Return to Ulster" from the Irish Songs WoO 152 (which I can send to anyone who is interested)

Dear Gerd;

I am in contact with a group that wants to record the two "Erlkonig" versions. Hopefully, this will be done in the end of 2006 or early 2007.

I checked my Deutch catalog. Schubert did write a setting for Schiller's "An die Freude" (D.189 May 1815, published as posthumous opus 111 in 1829).

Further, I found Schubert's version of "Freudvoll und liedvoll," also known as "Klarchen's song" from Egmont (D.210 June 1815).

I wonder how many such overlaps exist between Beethoven and Schubert.


Hofrat

[gprengel]

Originally posted by PDG:
Hello GP! I assume you are aware that Beethoven did not write the original music for these British & Irish folksongs.

Hi PDG,
of course I am aware of this but the way Beethoven arranged this song "Return to Ulster" (especially the mysterious piano treatment!) is absolutely original Beethoven. So through Beethoven this song rises far above being a little folk song and reaches the level of Schubert's greatest songs.

[gprengel]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
Schubert did write a setting for Schiller's "An die Freude" (D.189 May 1815, published as posthumous opus 111 in 1829).
Further, I found Schubert's version of "Freudvoll und liedvoll," also known as "Klarchen's song" from Egmont (D.210 June 1815).

I wonder how many such overlaps exist between Beethoven and Schubert.


Hofrat [/B]

Hi Hofrat,
there may be some overlappings with regard to some of Schubert's earlier songs, but to me this period is still rather unmature. I think the interesting songs from Schubert were written starting from 1817.

An overlapping that would interest me is the Goethe song "Nur wer die Sehnsucht kennt" ("Only he who knows the longing")
Schubert wrote a great version on this song I think in 1825 and Beethoven made 4 attempts
in 1807/08 in WOO 134, which unfortuneately I do not know. Does anyone of you know these?

This must have been a very attractive poem,for also Tschaikowsky wrote a wonderful song on this.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
Dear Rod;

Here is something interesting. In 1797, Beethoven sketched a setting for Goethe's "Erlkonig." It was completed in the 1880's by Reinhard Becker, and later revised by the guys on the Unheard Beethoven site (with the Unheard Beethoven version being closer to the sketches than the Becker version).

And if I am not mistaken (I am checking my sources), Schubert composed a setting for "An Freude."

So, we can compare two "Erlkonig" versions for sure.


Hofrat

Well alas I don't have this Beethoven reconstruction yet! Aldelaide and An die ferne Geliebte are of course the best known but I can name some other good numbers. I like very much Op48 - 6 religious 'songs' that are for sure designed to follow each other as a set; Kenst du das Land from Op75; both versions of An die Hoffnung Op32 and Op94; Wonne der Wehmut from Op86; there are some late period songs - Gedenke mein WoO130 and Abendlied unterm gestirnten Himmel WoO150. There are many other less substantial numbers that are nevertheless possessed of a good tune and certainly serve to lift the spirit. If I want to hear epic music I wouldn't look to this format, which I think was a little overdone in the Romantic period.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-26-2006).]

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by gprengel:
Schubert in his last months was about to go altogether new ways. He said in his last weeks that he conceives altogether new harmonies. An example of these new ways are the sketches for a symphony in D (DV 936a) where the development of the first Allegro in a quite revolutionary way is a slow kind of funeral march. And above all the slow movement - a fragmentary Andante in b minor. This movement has a depth of expression which is unsurpassed!!!

As I mentioned already in the past, from the piano sketch I realised without adding any new notes a rough orchestra version to give a slight impression of what Schubert had in mind. This as some of you know already can be heard at my website www.gerdprengel.de at item V.

Dear Gerd;

The Schubert scholar, Brian Newbould, has completed D.936a and published the score (Faver Publishing). It is a truly a fantastic work. It has been recorded a few times.

Newbould has also completed Schubert's 7th symphony in E (D.729) which, like the 10th symphony, show a Schubert totally unknown to us before.


Hofrat

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Rod:
Well alas I don't have this Beethoven reconstruction yet! Aldelaide and An die ferne Geliebte are of course the best known but I can name some other good numbers. I like very much Op48 - 6 religious 'songs' that are for sure designed to follow each other as a set; Kenst du das Land from Op75; both versions of An die Hoffnung Op32 and Op94; Wonne der Wehmut from Op86; there are some late period songs - Gedenke mein WoO130 and Abendlied unterm gestirnten Himmel WoO150. There are many other less substantial numbers that are nevertheless possessed of a good tune and certainly serve to lift the spirit. If I want to hear epic music I wouldn't look to this format, which I think was a little overdone in the Romantic period.

Doesn't anyone like "The Flea Song." What great imagery! One can truly see the flea jump. And a totally unbuttoned Beethoven! At the end of the song, Beethoven instructs the pianist to thump two adjacent keys with the thumb in an effort to squash the pest!


Hofrat

[Rod]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
Doesn't anyone like "The Flea Song." What great imagery! One can truly see the flea jump. And a totally unbuttoned Beethoven! At the end of the song, Beethoven instructs the pianist to thump two adjacent keys with the thumb in an effort to squash the pest!

Hofrat

Well, that is one of the less substantial numbers I was talking about!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[PDG]

Originally posted by gprengel:
Hi PDG,
of course I am aware of this but the way Beethoven arranged this song "Return to Ulster" (especially the mysterious piano treatment!) is absolutely original Beethoven. So through Beethoven this song rises far above being a little folk song and reaches the level of Schubert's greatest songs.

I disagree. A folk song is a folk song. Comparing any arrangement as "reaching the level of Schubert's greatest songs" is, frankly, ridiculous.

[PDG]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
Doesn't anyone like "The Flea Song." What great imagery! One can truly see the flea jump. And a totally unbuttoned Beethoven! At the end of the song, Beethoven instructs the pianist to thump two adjacent keys with the thumb in an effort to squash the pest!


Hofrat

It's brilliant. And a better flea tune than Herb Alpert's Spanish Flea!

[Rod]

Originally posted by PDG:
I disagree. A folk song is a folk song. Comparing any arrangement as "reaching the level of Schubert's greatest songs" is, frankly, ridiculous.

And yet some of these arrangements are quite marvelous. A good folksong is better than any self-indulgent melodramatic Romantic lied as far as I am concerned, whether the folksong is a 'joint production' or otherwise!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-26-2006).]