Would Schubert's Music Have Surpassed Beethoven?

[robert newman]

I have listened to several of Schubert's works for stage (some of them fragmentary). There is some wonderful music there, for sure.

But this reminds me - a few years ago there was a big shop near Waterloo station in London that sold old vinyl records (classical and jazz). It was a huge place and you could find almost anything there. Some of it quite expensive in the end.

The old man told me that he had dealt with tens of thousands of records in his career there. I asked him if there was one piece of music that he, personally, rated above all others. He said, 'It doesn't need much thought to answer you - I've known it for decades' -

'Oh', I said, 'and what piece is that' ?

'Well, he said, 'all of Europe in the first decade of the 19th century was raving about Napoleon Bonaparte - but the greatest man in Europe at that time was virtually unknown outside of German speaking music circles - Beethoven - and the piece is of course 'Fidelio''

(He said he had listened to every available version and was still listening to 'Fidelio' almost every day)

[PDG]

Robert, you jest! I know this guy!! In Notting Hill?? Aye, he'll spin you a yarn.....(or he did 15 or 20 years ago??).....Is he still around?

[Rod]

Originally posted by robert newman:


I have listened to several of Schubert's works for stage (some of them fragmentary). There is some wonderful music there, for sure.

But this reminds me - a few years ago there was a big shop near Waterloo station in London that sold old vinyl records (classical and jazz). It was a huge place and you could find almost anything there. Some of it quite expensive in the end.

The old man told me that he had dealt with tens of thousands of records in his career there. I asked him if there was one piece of music that he, personally, rated above all others. He said, 'It doesn't need much thought to answer you - I've known it for decades' -

'Oh', I said, 'and what piece is that' ?

'Well, he said, 'all of Europe in the first decade of the 19th century was raving about Napoleon Bonaparte - but the greatest man in Europe at that time was virtually unknown outside of German speaking music circles - Beethoven - and the piece is of course 'Fidelio''

(He said he had listened to every available version and was still listening to 'Fidelio' almost every day)

That's a good story Robert. Fidelio is a super-composition and all creation should be in awe of it. My first recording was Klemperer's tedious and awful effort on EMI, ironically the one the critics all say is the best. But that didn't put me off, I got my hands on Fricsay's leaner and tighter recording when it was remastered by DG. This is the one I still play in the absence of anything better appearing since. The ROH DVD is worth buying too for a visual experience.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-24-2006).]

[robert newman]

Dear PDG,

Don't know if it's the same person. He was a slim built man, a Londoner. Must have been 70 at least - and this around 8 years ago. The shop moved but I never did visit the new place. He knew I was searching for Bach cantatas so his personal view on 'Fidelio' seems to have been sincere. (Can't remember the name of his shop - it was down the steps from the back side of Waterloo train station, down near the market place there. I only remember that the name of the shop had an 'X' in it). Used to go there from time to time. Still have many vinyl records here with me. Ha ! Can't see myself parting from them. Crazy yes ?

Rod, yes, but if that live recorded performance I went to just a month or so ago with Sir Colin Davis at the Barbican is released (as seems to be in the pipeline) it would be great to have your view of it. It was a truly unforgettable experience to be there. A privilege.

[Rutradelusasa]

Originally posted by Rod:

That's a good story Robert. Fidelio is a super-composition and all creation should be in awe of it. My first recording was Klemperer's tedious and awful effort on EMI, ironically the one the critics all say is the best. But that didn't put me off, I got my hands on Fricsay's leaner and tighter recording when it was remastered by DG. This is the one I still play in the absence of anything better appearing since. The ROH DVD is worth buying too for a visual experience.

I have to agree about the recordings. The Klemperer I keep for the handsomness of the voices, but I can't find that dramatic spark in Klemperer's conducting.
Fricsay's has Dieskau in top form, a spine-tingling Pizzarro for sure! I have reservations considering the sound, though. The soloists are just TOO forward.
I like Kleiber's also. Nilsson is a force of nature and Kleiber keep pushing the drama ahead until it all bursts into the big climax of the second act quartett.

I also like Gardiner's drama, but the mix of versions are a big downer and I'm VERY GLAD I can programme the speaker out. Damn he's boring!



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"Wer ein holdes weib errugen..."

[robert newman]

PDG is of course right about the neglect of the Schubert piano sonatas. I was skimming through a book today by Alfred Brendel 'Music Sounded Out' which has a chapter devoted by him to Schubert's last sonatas. He touches on some really good points -

'Who in 19th century Vienna (apart from Brahms and the Hellmesberger Quartet) took any interest in Schubert's instrumental music ? The Schubert enthusiasts Schumann, Mendelssohn, Liszt, Anton Rubenstein, Dvorak and George Greve were all rare visitors to Vienna. Again, how many of the great Schubert singers or conductors came from his home town or country ? Where, until quite recently, were Viennese pianists who championed Schubert's sonatas ? For Sauer, Rosenthal and Godowsky these sonatas were deemed to be of no consquence - in fact they owe their discovery to Schnabel and Erdmann in the Berlin of the 1920's. ''

Also Brendel writes -

'Schubert relates to Beethoven. He reacts to him. But he follows him hardly at all. Similarities of mood, texture or formal pattern never obscure Schubert's own voice. Models are concealed, transformed, surpassed'

And finally Brendel quotes from a lecture from Arnold Schoenberg (who greatly admired Schubert's independence under the shadow of Beethoven) -

'Close to such a crushing genius as Beethoven Schubert does not feel the need to deny such greatness in order somehow to endure. What self confidence this Schubert had ! What truly aristocratic awareness of one's own rank which respects the equal in the other'

//

I entirely agree that we still have far to go to appreciate much of what Schubert actually achieved.

RN



[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 07-25-2006).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Rutradelusasa:

Fricsay's has Dieskau in top form, a spine-tingling Pizzarro for sure! I have reservations considering the sound, though. The soloists are just TOO forward.

...I also like Gardiner's drama, but the mix of versions are a big downer and I'm VERY GLAD I can programme the speaker out. Damn he's boring!

With Fricsay's I understand what you mean about the sound, but considering this was DG's VERY FIRST stereo recording they did a good job of the remaster.

I have Gardiner's too (a Leonore/Fidelio pot-pourri as you say) but the whole concept of it (using a narrator inbetween the sung parts instead of the libretto spoken by the cast) is a rediculous joke and an insult. I only bought it in a sale for the numbers that are not in Fidelio.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-25-2006).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by robert newman:


Rod, yes, but if that live recorded performance I went to just a month or so ago with Sir Colin Davis at the Barbican is released (as seems to be in the pipeline) it would be great to have your view of it. It was a truly unforgettable experience to be there. A privilege.

Sorry I missed this. I doubt I'll be buying it unless you heard some valveless brass and Panda-skin topped drums in the orchestra? You should buy it yourself as a momento. I recall your review was positive, I'll take your word as good!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-25-2006).]

[PDG]

Originally posted by Rod:
I doubt I'll be buying it unless you heard some valveless brass and Panda-skin topped drums in the orchestra?

Horrible. My God, I take it you don't contribute to the World Wildlife Fund?

[gprengel]

Schubert certainly surpassed Beethoven in his songs, but Beethoven's works like the Missa Solemnis, the Ninth or the late sonatas cannot be surpassed. Schubert in his last years went into another direction than Beethoven and found a field of deep, deep emotions that shaken me just as much as Beethoven does, in particular in his slow movements (Stringquintett in C, stringquartett in d, 9th symphony, piano sonatas,...) - eventhough his musical language is different.

Schubert in his last months was about to go altogether new ways. He said in his last weeks that he conceives altogether new harmonies. An example of these new ways are the sketches for a symphony in D (DV 936a) where the development of the first Allegro in a quite revolutionary way is a slow kind of funeral march. And above all the slow movement - a fragmentary Andante in b minor. This movement has a depth of expression which is unsurpassed!!!

As I mentioned already in the past, from the piano sketch I realised without adding any new notes a rough orchestra version to give a slight impression of what Schubert had in mind. This as some of you know already can be heard at my website www.gerdprengel.de at item V.

Gerd

[This message has been edited by gprengel (edited 07-26-2006).]

[Chaszz]

Let us go all they way and imagine modern medicine being available then, and Beethoven, Mozart and Schubert all living long lives and composing during the same time period, aware of each other's music. What a steeplechase that would have been.

[Nightklavier]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
...and Beethoven, Mozart and Schubert all living long lives and composing during the same time period, aware of each other's music. What a steeplechase that would have been.

And what a greater world we would have; imagine if Mozart lived to be 70, his compositions growing to the limits of profundity. If Schubert lived to the same age, he undoubtedly would have been the Beethoven of the entire Romantic period. I'm sure at one point the public would be induced to title a later symphony a Beethoven's tenth, just like they did with Brahms' first. And Beethoven living older to compose more? It's hard to imagine that after the ninth and the missa solemnis we could get something... greater.

[Rod]

Originally posted by gprengel:
Schubert certainly surpassed Beethoven in his songs

Have you heard any of Beethoven's songs?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Nightklavier:

It's hard to imagine that after the ninth and the missa solemnis we could get something... greater.

If Beethoven had died in by the end of 1806 we would be saying the Appassionata was the greatest sonata ever written, the Rasumovsky quartets the greatest quartets, the Eroica the greatest Symphony, the 4th Piano Concerto the greatest piano concerto, the Violin Concerto the greatest violin concerto... I could go on and on. And yet look what came after. This is the unmatched range and quality of Beethoven's music even by his mid 30s. Schubert would have had to achieve more than this in just five years had he lived and Mozart just one year!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-26-2006).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Have you heard any of Beethoven's songs?

I have and whilst there are outstanding works amongst them, Schubert achieved far more in this genre! Lieder was the natural outlet for a composer whose gift was primarily melodic rather than structural. I don't expect you to agree. Out of Schubert's 600 odd songs is there one you consider equals the least worthy of Beethoven's? How for example do you rate works such as 'Die Junge Nonne', 'Ganymed', 'An Achwager Kronos', or 'Nacht und Traume'?

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'Man know thyself'