Would Schubert's Music Have Surpassed Beethoven?

[lvbfanatic]

Even though Schubert lived to be 31 years old, he left us an absolutely impressive musical legacy. Had he lived longer, say by 30 years, would his music have pushed beyond the boundaries of Beethoven's works?

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A Calm Sea and A Prosperous Voyage

[Rutradelusasa]

To me Beethoven's music is in a unserpassable-level. There just is no higher level to go.
I already see Schubert's music in the beyond-greatness level and if he had lived 30 more years I think he would have walked those 2 centimeters that separates him from Beethoven.

I can't seem to express myself in the way that I want ...

Like this: Schubert's music is the pinnacle of all music (together with Bach, Händel, Haydn and Mozart), but it is no Beethoven. Had he lived 30 more years I guess the sentence would go: Bach, Händel, Haydn and Mozart are the pinnacle of music but they aren't Beethoven or Schubert.

Also, had Schubert lived that long, I'd fear for all of those in the way, say Schumann, Mendelssohn, Brahms and Bruckner.

I really wish Beethoven had finished the 10th, the Requiem, Macbeth and the quintet before retiring (not *being* retired as it happened) and Schubert had given us at least 2 more symphonies and a chance to write a great Opera with a good libretto.

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"Wer ein holdes weib errugen..."

[Rod]

Everyone seems to forget the vast range of quality music Beethoven produced thoughout his life. Other than oratorio, every field conquered and unsurpassed long before he reached his late period. If Schubert lived a handful of years more would he have produced an Eroica? a Waldstein? A Razumovsky? An Emperor? Even a Moonlight? Could he even begin to compose an Appassionata? I very seriously doubt it.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin



[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-24-2006).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Everyone seems to forget the vast range of quality music Beethoven produced thoughout his life. Other than oratorio, every field conquered and unsurpassed long before he reached his late period. If Schubert lived a handful of years more would he have produced an Eroica? a Waldstein? A Razumovsky? An Emperor? Even a Moonlight? Could he even begin to compose an Appassionata? I very seriously doubt it.

Well of course he wouldn't have produced those works, Schubert was Schubert, a unique genius with a voice of his own. I have no doubt he would have gone on to much greater heights had he lived. Works such as the unfinished symphony (written by a 26 year old) reveal total originality and an incedible depth of emotinal maturity as does the later Winterreise. I would say that when Schubert died he was just entering the equivalent of Beethoven's middle period which began at around that age.

Anyhow the argument is fruitless as he died aged 31 having left an astonishing contribution to music.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well of course he wouldn't have produced those works, Schubert was Schubert, a unique genius with a voice of his own. I have no doubt he would have gone on to much greater heights had he lived. Works such as the unfinished symphony (written by a 26 year old) reveal total originality and an incedible depth of emotinal maturity as does the later Winterreise. I would say that when Schubert died he was just entering the equivalent of Beethoven's middle period which began at around that age.

Anyhow the argument is fruitless as he died aged 31 having left an astonishing contribution to music.

I agree the argument is fruitless, but when considering the notion of any composer surpassing Beethoven one has to think about the Beethoven pieces that would need to be surpassed. And considering the works I mention above it would be an increadibly difficult tast. You wouldn't be surprised if I thought the Beethoven sonatas I mentioned are way beyond that produced by Schubert, even at his end. But I'm sure you'd agree when it comes to originality Beethoven stands on his own.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-24-2006).]

[Agnes Selby]

No, I do not think Schubert would have surpassed Beethoven. For a simple reason.

Beethoven was Beethoven and Schubert was Schubert. Two men with a different greatness. They are in no competition with each other and each evokes different emotions. Each stands on a pedestal of his own making.

Regards,
Agnes.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Agnes Selby:

No, I do not think Schubert would have surpassed Beethoven. For a simple reason.

Beethoven was Beethoven and Schubert was Schubert. Two men with a different greatness. They are in no competition with each other and each evokes different emotions. Each stands on a pedestal of his own making.

Regards,
Agnes.

Well Agnes, unusual to see you playing the part of Il Moderato. Robert will think you've gone soft.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-24-2006).]

[Euan Mackinnon]

Originally posted by Agnes Selby:

No, I do not think Schubert would have surpassed Beethoven. For a simple reason.

Beethoven was Beethoven and Schubert was Schubert. Two men with a different greatness. They are in no competition with each other and each evokes different emotions. Each stands on a pedestal of his own making.

Regards,
Agnes.

Agnes

I, for one, completely agree with you. I would add at least two further 'pedestals' - one for J S Bach and one for Mozart.

Euan

[robert newman]

It is really wonderful to see how fast Schubert matured in his final years. And how willing he was to even learn again things he believed would help him. (As in, for example, counterpoint lessons). A whole series of late works testify to his accelerating progress.

In addition, there are known to have been at least 40 works by Schubert that were lost and are still lost including -

D14 – Overture for Keyboard (c.1812)
D19 – String Quartet (c.1811)
D19a – String Quartet (c.1811)
D20 - Overture for String Quartet (1812)
D21 – 6 Variations in E Flat (1812)
D27 - Salve Regina for Soprano Solo, Orchestra and Organ (1812)
D40 – String Quartet in E Flat (1813)
D41 – 10 Minuets with Trios in easy style (1813)
D92 – Canon ‘Lass immer in der Jugend Glanz’ for 2 voices (c.1814)
D127 –Canon ‘Selig alle, die im Herrn entschlafen’ for 2 voices (c.1815 ?)
D132 – Trio for 2 Tenors and Bass (c.1813)
D133 – Trio for 2 Tenors and Bass (c.1813)
D332 – Trio for 2 Tenors and Bass (c.1816)
D333 – Trio for 2 Tenors and Bass (c.1816)
D339 – Trio for 2 Tenors and Bass (c.1816)
D340 - Trio for 2 Tenors and Bass (c.1816)
D341 – Trio for 2 Tenors and Bass (c.1816)
D425 – Trio for 2 Tenors and Bass (c.1816)
D426 – Trio for 2 Tenors and Bass (c.1816)
D451 – Cantata ‘Prometheus’ (consisting of an Overture, vocal solo, 3 choruses etc)
D582 – Song ‘Augenblicke im Elysium’ (date of composition unknown)
D597 – Overture in Italian Style for Piano Duet (version specially made by Schubert)
D665 – Vocal Quartet ‘Im traulichen Kreise’ (1819)
D683 - Song, ‘Die Wolkenbraut’ (date of composition unknown)
D841 – Two German Dances for Piano (1825) - Incipit only
D849 – Symphony (Gmunden-Gastein) ?
D863 – Song. ‘An Gott’ (c.1826)
D864 – Song ‘Das Totenhemdchen’ (1826)
D941 – ‘Hymnus an den heiligen Geist’ (TTBB) first version (1828)
D944a – German Dance for Piano (1828)
D981 – Singspiel ‘Der Minnesanger’ (1817 ?)
D989 – Song, ‘Die Erde’ (date of composition unknown)

Finally, his last 3 great piano sonatas were only published for the first time in 1839/40, 11 years after his death.

Rgds

[PDG]

Originally posted by lvbfanatic:
Even though Schubert lived to be 31 years old, he left us an absolutely impressive musical legacy. Had he lived longer, say by 30 years, would his music have pushed beyond the boundaries of Beethoven's works?

One of the most tantalising questions in all music, but we'll simply never know. Alas.

[PDG]

Originally posted by Rod:
Everyone seems to forget the vast range of quality music Beethoven produced thoughout his life. Other than oratorio, every field conquered and unsurpassed long before he reached his late period. If Schubert lived a handful of years more would he have produced an Eroica? a Waldstein? A Razumovsky? An Emperor? Even a Moonlight? Could he even begin to compose an Appassionata? I very seriously doubt it.

Schubert never wrote a concerto. Not because it was beyond him, but he simply didn't have the patronage and orchestral availability to really make it worth his while attempting one. For what it's worth, I think the Emperor is the greatest of them all, standing as a testament to the tempestuous times in which was written.

[PDG]

Originally posted by robert newman:

It is really wonderful to see how fast Schubert matured in his final years. And how willing he was to even learn again things he believed would help him. (As in, for example, counterpoint lessons). A whole series of late works testify to his accelerating progress.


Finally, his last 3 great piano sonatas were only published for the first time in 1839/40, 11 years after his death.

Rgds

Thanks for the list, Robert. Schubert's great legacy is that of a man who, despite living in the contemporary shadow of Beethoven (although Schubert was at least actually Viennese!), and who relied on his friends rather than rich patrons to reassure him of his genius, and who was basically shy towards society, and who was not a virtuoso musician, and who knew that death would claim him in still early life, is his unparalleled sense of melody. It permeates everything he did, including the late masterpieces. He could not be unmelodic, but since melody is only one (though important) part of a composition, he would sometimes struggle with development since a great tune has in-built development, and, where Beethoven was the undisputed king, in his codas.

All should be proportional. Apart from his unique talent, Beeethoven had The Knack of total and pure composition. I know of no other composer who did. When it suited him (eg. the 9th Symphony), LvB could finish a work in a dash after dinner. Schubert left so much unfinished music that his "unfinished" paperwork outweighs Beethoven's finished.

As recently as 1928, Rachmaninov stated that he didn't know that Schubert had written any piano sonatas. I suggest that in our Schubert understanding, we're not much better off today.

[Rod]

Originally posted by PDG:
Schubert never wrote a concerto. Not because it was beyond him, but he simply didn't have the patronage and orchestral availability to really make it worth his while attempting one. For what it's worth, I think the Emperor is the greatest of them all, standing as a testament to the tempestuous times in which was written.

Well to surpass Beethoven in his own field the candidate is going to have to become unsurpassed in every one of the primary instrumental forms of music. Solo, duo and trio sonatas, variations, quartets, concertos, symphonies, overtures, you name it. And after all that, then tackle the likes of the Fidelio and the Solemn Mass! The challenger would be better of sticking to theater music which is not really Beethoven's field, but he'd be beaten by Handel if he tried ho! ho!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-24-2006).]

[PDG]

Originally posted by Rod:
ho! ho!

Merry Xmas!

[Rod]

Originally posted by PDG:
Merry Xmas!

I bend the knee.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin