Bach Sinfonia

[robert newman]

It would not be difficult to provide other examples of Bach's consumate genius in every single form of music in which he was involved. The 4 orchestral suites of Bach are models of a kind and I deliberately did not use them. The reason is simply that I was providing evidence of music specifically written for public festivities, of which Bach's Cantata No. 29 is one such example. (The Orchestral Suites and, in fact, the Brandenburg Concertos were not written for any specific public celebration). So my choice is a fair one.

I again say that a good recording of this Bach Sinfonia is exhilarating. And I am sure that a musical person will agree that it (like virtually everything Bach wrote)is tremendous. Is there, in all of music, any piece with such a sustained and demanding part for a keyboard soloist ?. I do not know of any on that issue alone. With better sound balance a hearer would appreciate just how awesome that piece is. It remains (to me)at least the equal to Beethoven's 'Consecration of the House'. And Bach is here modelling himself on no-one but himself.

I have heard many Handel overtures (perhaps 20 or so), many of which, frankly, I do not rate as musically significant.

But one final thing I would say - that in threads such as this we need to agree first on what criteria we are judging, so that points cannot be scored or lost on such issues as sound quality etc. In this case we started out asking if works by Bach exist which, as festive pieces, rank with that of Beethoven's 'Consecration of the House'. I thik that Sinfonia does. I also agree that the opening to the 3rd Orchestral Suite in D does so also. (But I deliberately did not choose it since in my view that piece is sublime in a heavenly way, rather that in a public/festive way. The difference between these two things is very real).

Regards

[Rod]

Originally posted by robert newman:

It would not be difficult to provide other examples of Bach's consumate genius in every single form of music in which he was involved. The 4 orchestral suites of Bach are models of a kind and I deliberately did not use them. The reason is simply that I was providing evidence of music specifically written for public festivities, of which Bach's Cantata No. 29 is one such example. (The Orchestral Suites and, in fact, the Brandenburg Concertos were not written for any specific public celebration). So my choice is a fair one.

I again say that a good recording of this Bach Sinfonia is exhilarating. And I am sure that a musical person will agree that it (like virtually everything Bach wrote)is tremendous. Is there, in all of music, any piece with such a sustained and demanding part for a keyboard soloist ?. I do not know of any on that issue alone. With better sound balance a hearer would appreciate just how awesome that piece is. It remains (to me)at least the equal to Beethoven's 'Consecration of the House'. And Bach is here modelling himself on no-one but himself.

I have heard many Handel overtures (perhaps 20 or so), many of which, frankly, I do not rate as musically significant.

But one final thing I would say - that in threads such as this we need to agree first on what criteria we are judging, so that points cannot be scored or lost on such issues as sound quality etc. In this case we started out asking if works by Bach exist which, as festive pieces, rank with that of Beethoven's 'Consecration of the House'. I thik that Sinfonia does. I also agree that the opening to the 3rd Orchestral Suite in D does so also. (But I deliberately did not choose it since in my view that piece is sublime in a heavenly way, rather that in a public/festive way. The difference between these two things is very real).

Regards

I made allowance for your sinfonia's recording deficiancies. I would also ask about the quality of the Handel overture performances you heard if you rate them so lowly. I chose the Deborah by pure chance of it being mentioned here. I would have presented any of the dozens of Handel overtures I have if requested in complete confidence. I could have presented something from the Fireworks or Water suites, perhaps the ultimate in festival music. Remember Bach was forgotten for 100 years but Handel was forgotten for 200 years.

The consistent feature of Bach relative to Beethoven and Handel is the relative lack of boldness in the textures of the former. Beethoven and Handel never hold their punches on occasions like this, whereas which Bach there is always a sence of restraint or discomfort, as is demonstrated in the suite track. it's as if he just can't wait to get back into the security of his contrapuntal excercises.

The sinfonia is not really a festival piece but I prefer it to the suite as I have said (but I confess I have never liked Bach's orchestral suites even before I heard anything of Handel's). However I am not sure the length of the keyboard part is always justified by the quality of the content. Bach is not a flawless composer, though the cultists will disagree. At the end of the day I am aware some people do not need a great deal of stimulous to get excited, but when I want lightning I expect lightning and not a fire-cracker.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-24-2006).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Peter it occured to me that you found reason to identify from a third party an alleged flaw in Beethoven's magnificent overture, whilst at the same time offering unreserved praise for the, to my mind, rather average Bach track. You write off my own wholely valid critisism of it without offering a reasoned counter-response. I would appreciate more your own true assessment of the Beethoven, unless you are afraid to reveal that the 'worm has turned' as far as you and Beethoven are conserned. A thought that has been creeping up on me about you in recent months.

The flaw is a real one from a strict musical point of view and I agree with Fiske which is why I quoted him. Why should I bother to tell you who Fiske is because you would dismiss any academic criteria as irrelevant!

Having acknowledged what I consider a fact -Beethoven does overdo the sequences, I still consider the overture a splendid and exhilerating piece, certainly the best of the later overtures.

I am also in complete agreement with Robert in his assessment of Bach. The Bach track I presented is not 'rather average' and this time you surprise me that you are unable to tell average music from great which is why I find your judgement on these matters suspect.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
The flaw is a real one from a strict musical point of view and I agree with Fiske which is why I quoted him. Why should I bother to tell you who Fiske is because you would dismiss any academic criteria as irrelevant!

Why quote from Fiske if you had the same opinon yourself? All my assessments come directly from the horse's mouth!

Originally posted by Peter:

I am also in complete agreement with Robert in his assessment of Bach. The Bach track I presented is not 'rather average' and this time you surprise me that you are unable to tell average music from great which is why I find your judgement on these matters suspect.

And yet who can say I'm not a good judge of Beethoven, with a sharper and more critical ear than yourself? Because with respect getting any critical assessment out of yourself has long proved extremely difficult. Your reluctance was one of the reasons I thought you were loosing interest in the master.

Believe me if Beethoven had composed that suite, even as performed here on period instruments, it would have been average Beethoven. I wonder sometimes if after all this time you really know what makes Beethoven Beethoven? I suggest it is yourself who needs to reassess his critical faculties. Is there anything about Bach you don't like?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin



[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-24-2006).]

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
...If Bach focused more on his primary thematic material and kept the structure more simple and compact it would have... well.. sounded like Handel!

Eaactly! Your comment here shows precisely what I've been saying, that you are not temperamentally, or genetically, or physiologically suited, to understand and appreciate Bach. Bach never "keeps to his primary thematic material" in the way you prefer, becasue he's a polyphonist, not a homophonic composer as Handel and Beethoven basically are. Although both wrote polyphony, they almost never wrote it with Bach's complexity. And it is not their musical lifeblood, as it is Bach's. It is time you realized your unpreference for Bach is a matter of taste and style, not substance, and that the legions who love Bach are embracing a real thing, which you cannot hear as they can!! Those who CAN and willingly DO mentally process Bach's habit of presenting his melodies in separate voices, in which one voice is only slightly more dominant than the others, get the highest pleasure out of this mix, pleasure which is only heightened because every voice, including the bass line, is playing great melody all at once. Jeez!! give me strength!!



[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 07-24-2006).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Eaactly! Your comment here shows precisely what I've been saying, that you are not temperamentally, or genetically, or physiologically suited, to understand and appreciate Bach. Bach never "keeps to his primary thematic material" in the way you prefer, becasue he's a polyphonist, not a homophonic composer as Handel and Beethoven basically are. Although both wrote polyphony, they almost never wrote it with Bach's complexity. And it is not their musical lifeblood, as it is Bach's. It is time you realized your unpreference for Bach is a matter of taste and style, not substance, and that the legions who love Bach are embracing a real thing, which you cannot hear as they can!! Those who CAN and willingly DO mentally process Bach's habit of presenting his melodies in separate voices, in which one voice is only slightly more dominant than the others, get the highest pleasure out of this mix, pleasure which is only heightened because every voice, including the bass line, is playing great melody all at once. Jeez!! give me strength!!

[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 07-24-2006).]

Ah Chaszz! Believe me I was expecting your visit here. I hope you enjoyed all the music on offer in this chain, even Handel's. I'd like your assessment of it.

I'm glad you as a Bachian recognise the differentials I make between the two, otherwise I'd really have been scratching my head. I appreciate you making the effort, however your psychoanalysis of my internal musical processing is not really required.

It is all a matter of balance. There is still plenty of contrapuntal activity from Handel, you can find it everywhere, and I have dozens of fugues by him. However he never labours the counterpoint to the degree that it ceases to become musical, which is why I find Bach so often very dry and clinical, lacking the personal touch. And even then some of the voices and instruments conflict to my ears as I've mentioned here before.

With fugues Handel sometimes breaks the all rules in the search for a more dramatic effect, so that sometimes they become quasi-fugues. I think this is more in line with Beethoven's development of the form. I'm no composer, but I would think comming up with good material is harder than completing endless 'correct' fugues on forgetable themes. At one time Beethoven thought little of the genre, stating casually he had composed many in his younger days as studies. But what he produced in his later works was a new more dramatic and developed context for the fugue. Really its ultimate development in instrument music. I always look at music from a varied and dramatic perspective, that is my psychology Chaszz, that is why I'm into Beethoven and Handel as these are the chief and ultimate exponents of this style.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-24-2006).]

[Sorrano]

Chaszz, as much as I admire Bach (and particulary for his polyphonic works) I do have to consider that the fugues that Beethoven composed in the later years of his life reach heights in not only complexity, but also in drama and technique, previously not attained. Perhaps equaled with Bach but I think surpassed, but then that is my opinion and I do admire and respect the technique of Bach and his indespensable contribution to the world of music.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
And yet who can say I'm not a good judge of Beethoven, with a sharper and more critical ear than yourself? Because with respect getting any critical assessment out of yourself has long proved extremely difficult. Your reluctance was one of the reasons I thought you were loosing interest in the master.

Believe me if Beethoven had composed that suite, even as performed here on period instruments, it would have been average Beethoven. I wonder sometimes if after all this time you really know what makes Beethoven Beethoven? I suggest it is yourself who needs to reassess his critical faculties. Is there anything about Bach you don't like?

The reason for my reticence is simply that your opinions are very clear and predictable on all matters ranging from HIP to individual composers. You mock most musicians, great performers of the past, teaching institutions and dismiss all who disagree with you as though they are somehow inferior. So why engage in such pointless debate with one so convinced of their own superiority?

As to Bach, of course I can find fault in some of the works, this is so with every composer including Beethoven. It would be far more to the point if you think any of Beethoven's works can be criticised?

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
The reason for my reticence is simply that your opinions are very clear and predictable on all matters ranging from HIP to individual composers. You mock most musicians, great performers of the past, teaching institutions and dismiss all who disagree with you as though they are somehow inferior. So why engage in such pointless debate with one so convinced of their own superiority?

As to Bach, of course I can find fault in some of the works, this is so with every composer including Beethoven. It would be far more to the point if you think any of Beethoven's works can be criticised?

Well there are other people here to debate with other than myself Peter, my 'clear and predictable opinions' are no excuse for you to say anything at all. And it would give others something alternative to read other than my rantings!

Everyone I 'mock' is mocked for a very good reason and usually I give that reason. A good example is the EMI recording of Fidelio being discussed in the Schubert chain. It is clearly the most boring account imaginable yet every musical comentator I have read gushes over it with unending praise. They are wrong, this is a simple fact, and they are misleading the public. I myself was mislead.

If you had read by comments regarding HIP recordings over the years you would have been aware that I am equally as critical concerning those efforts, sometimes even more so.

Concerning Beethoven's flaws you forget all my critisism of Bach stems from his overall compositional style, which regardless of Beethoven I find quite limited in dramatic scope and generally uninteresting. On this basis Beethoven will always be superior to Bach. I meant do you had any problem with Bach at this level or is this the ideal musical solution Gardiner, for example, thinks it is?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:

Ah Chaszz! Believe me I was expecting your visit here. I hope you enjoyed all the music on offer in this chain, even Handel's. I'd like your assessment of it.

I'm glad you as a Bachian recognise the differentials I make between the two, otherwise I'd really have been scratching my head. I appreciate you making the effort, however your psychoanalysis of my internal musical processing is not really required.

It is all a matter of balance. There is still plenty of contrapuntal activity from Handel, you can find it everywhere, and I have dozens of fugues by him. However he never labours the counterpoint to the degree that it ceases to become musical, which is why I find Bach so often very dry and clinical, lacking the personal touch. And even then some of the voices and instruments conflict to my ears as I've mentioned here before.

With fugues Handel sometimes breaks the all rules in the search for a more dramatic effect, so that sometimes they become quasi-fugues. I think this is more in line with Beethoven's development of the form. I'm no composer, but I would think comming up with good material is harder than completing endless 'correct' fugues on forgetable themes. At one time Beethoven thought little of the genre, stating casually he had composed many in his younger days as studies. But what he produced in his later works was a new more dramatic and developed context for the fugue. Really its ultimate development in instrument music. I always look at music from a varied and dramatic perspective, that is my psychology Chaszz, that is why I'm into Beethoven and Handel as these are the chief and ultimate exponents of this style.

Both you and Sorrano (in the post just following this one of yours) persist in calling Bach's polyphony dry and mathematical. While this may be true of some of his works, and I don't deny it, it is not true of, for instance, the last movement of the Musical Offering in particular (and the Musical Offering in general), and his orchestral suites and concertos, and such movements from the instrumental works as the tragic Chaconne from Violin Partita No. 2. And it is certainly not true of the mighty choruses (some with trumpets) from many cantatas and from the Mass in B Minor, the Magnificat in D, and the Christmas Oratorio. These works are brimming over with strongly felt dramatic emotion which you cannot hear, because of your predisposition against counterpoint or Bach's counterpoint. They are the very opposite of dry and intellectual.

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Chaszz:

Both you and Sorrano (in the post just following this one of yours) persist in calling Bach's polyphony dry and mathematical. While this may be true of some of his works, and I don't deny it, it is not true of, for instance, the last movement of the Musical Offering in particular (and the Musical Offering in general), and his orchestral suites and concertos, and such movements from the instrumental works as the tragic Chaconne from Violin Partita No. 2. And it is certainly not true of the mighty choruses (some with trumpets) from many cantatas and from the Mass in B Minor, the Magnificat in D, and the Christmas Oratorio. These works are brimming over with strongly felt dramatic emotion which you cannot hear, because of your predisposition against counterpoint or Bach's counterpoint. They are the very opposite of dry and intellectual.

Not quite so, Chaszz, I tend to think that Bach's homophonic works are dry but the fugues (particularly the organ fugues) I cannot get enough of. My comment above is simply that I think of some of the fugues in Beethoven's later works to be the highest expression of that art form, but I do not consider Bach's polyphonic output dry at all! And that you mention the fugues in the choral music, I haven't considered them much since I am not too familiar with the choral music.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
Not quite so, Chaszz, I tend to think that Bach's homophonic works are dry but the fugues (particularly the organ fugues) I cannot get enough of. My comment above is simply that I think of some of the fugues in Beethoven's later works to be the highest expression of that art form, but I do not consider Bach's polyphonic output dry at all! And that you mention the fugues in the choral music, I haven't considered them much since I am not too familiar with the choral music.

This reminds me of when I was listening to some of Bach's cantatas on the radio. Things progress in Bach's typical contrapuntal style, then out of the blue an aria would appear in the Italian operatic style, complete with two part harmony (or something approaching that). Quite bizarre. The 'DJ' suggested politely there had maybe been some 'borrowing' by Bach here and there. I had no doubt of it.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-25-2006).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:

And it is certainly not true of the mighty choruses (some with trumpets) from many cantatas and from the Mass in B Minor...

What's the big deal with Bach and trumpets? Robert made a similar remark about his Bach Sinfonia. Some of Handel's choruses used veritable armies of brass! My authentic recording of the Fireworks music has 9 trumpets, 9 horns, 24 oboes, 15 recorders, 12 bassoons and as a Brucie Bonus a couple of contrabassoons...just to add a bit of colour.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-25-2006).]

[Rod]

Talking of fugues, a Beethoven effort we don't talk much about is his little fugue for String Quintet Op137 (1817). A very interesting piece in his 'difficult' fugue style but with an engagingly lyrical and delicate flavour to it also. Have many of you heard it? If not maybe you guys need another Brucie Bonus soon...

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Nightklavier]

I've never heard it Rod Please enlighten me (or us) with a "Brucie Bonus"