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**robert newman** · 07-23-2006, 06:08 AM

Thanks for posting this Rod. I agree that the sound engineers could have done a lot better. But I still think this piece is a pheonmenal one. With a larger orchestra and more solid trumpet playing that piece sounds divine. I do rate it, musically, with the Beethoven 'Consecration of the House' as being one of THE great festive/public pieces. Just my personal view, of course.

**Peter** · 07-23-2006, 01:22 PM

Originally posted by robert newman:

Thanks for posting this Rod. I agree that the sound engineers could have done a lot better. But I still think this piece is a pheonmenal one. With a larger orchestra and more solid trumpet playing that piece sounds divine. I do rate it, musically, with the Beethoven 'Consecration of the House' as being one of THE great festive/public pieces. Just my personal view, of course.

Nice piece Robert, however I think the opening movement of the 3rd Orchestral suite is even more exciting.

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'Man know thyself'

**Peter** · 07-23-2006, 01:28 PM

Originally posted by Rod:
Regulars may recall my request for Robert to produce his Bachian 'Consecration of the House', a Sinfonia from one of his canatatas, and he has duly obliged. I've uploaded it for everybody to try and make comment upon. See the link below:
http://www.mysharefile.com/v/3519218...fonia.wma.html

A pleasant enough piece though the organ meandering grates after a while. It seems a little too prominent in the recording mix which doesn't help. To be honest I was expecting something grander, more substantial to compete with Beethoven's. See what you think.

As a Brucie bonus I have the similarly festive Overture from Handel's oratorio 'Deborah' from the Robert King/Hyperion recording that was discussed here briefly in another chain:
http://www.mysharefile.com/v/8602457/Deborah.wma.html

It's a typical Handel 3 part affair grave-allegro-minuet. King's direction could be a touch tighter. The minuet you will instantly recognise as it was reused and developed further in the Fireworks music.

Typically majestic Handel, but I recommend the opening movement of Bach's 3rd orchestral suite for the answer to your original point. I will upload the mp3 later for your delectation!

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'Man know thyself'

**Rod** · 07-23-2006, 01:37 PM

Originally posted by robert newman:

Thanks for posting this Rod. I agree that the sound engineers could have done a lot better. But I still think this piece is a pheonmenal one. With a larger orchestra and more solid trumpet playing that piece sounds divine. I do rate it, musically, with the Beethoven 'Consecration of the House' as being one of THE great festive/public pieces. Just my personal view, of course.

Well the Hanover Band is far from being a Philharmonic size operaton, but yes the brass could have been more prominent in your track. Of course Handel is the most famous composer for 'festive public pieces' and this tendancy is clear even in the overture from his least appreciated Oratorio (which with respect I much prefer to the Sinfonia and of course is much more in line with Beethoven's effort).

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-23-2006).]

**Rod** · 07-23-2006, 01:49 PM

Originally posted by Peter:
Typically majestic Handel, but I recommend the opening movement of Bach's 3rd orchestral suite for the answer to your original point. I will upload the mp3 later for your delectation!

You know I'll listen to it, but I hope Mr King is an innocent man, I've got all his Handel CDs! http://www.guardian.co.uk/crime/arti...817661,00.html

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

**Peter** · 07-23-2006, 04:18 PM

Originally posted by Rod:
You know I'll listen to it, but I hope Mr King is an innocent man, I've got all his Handel CDs! http://www.guardian.co.uk/crime/arti...817661,00.html

Here is the mp3 - takes a few moments to download and it isn't the complete movement but gives a good idea. A slow introduction leads to a lively Allegro. Roy Goodman is the conductor with the Brandenburg Consort.
www.kbam.co.uk/3rdsuite.mp3

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 07-23-2006).]

**Rod** · 07-23-2006, 05:45 PM

Originally posted by Peter:
Here is the mp3 - takes a few moments to download and it isn't the complete movement but gives a good idea. A slow introduction leads to a lively Allegro. Roy Goodman is the conductor with the Brandenburg Consort.
www.kbam.co.uk/3rdsuite.mp3

Thanks for that. Firstly I recommend you switch to a lower resolution in future. Your track (192kbps MP3) lasts only four minutes but the file is 5.42mb. If you used for example 64kbps WMA the file would have been half the size without noticeable loss of quality. Robert's was similarly huge so I reduced the resolution before I uploaded it myself!

Back to the music. This is a little more like I was expecting, more overture-like with the Grave-Allegro format, though I wouldn't say is was necessarily a better piece than the Sinfonia. The Grave has ambitions of grandness that aren't ideally realised to my mind, similarly with the Allegro though I prefer this section. If Bach focused more on his primary thematic material and kept the structure more simple and compact it would have... well.. sounded like Handel!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-23-2006).]

**Megan** · 07-23-2006, 05:51 PM

Originally posted by Peter:
Here is the mp3 - takes a few moments to download and it isn't the complete movement but gives a good idea. A slow introduction leads to a lively Allegro. Roy Goodman is the conductor with the Brandenburg Consort.
www.kbam.co.uk/3rdsuite.mp3

I think Rod was being a bit sneaky putting up the Bach Sinfonia , Wir Danken dir Gott, with the wonderful extract from Deborah .

Peter's selection is fairer to Bach and shows that he is in no way inferior to Handel. And for all Handel's rich and wonderful melodic line, Bach has a tonal brilliance and radiance in this orchestral suite no.3 which is unmatched.

'

**Peter** · 07-23-2006, 09:05 PM

Originally posted by Rod:
Thanks for that. Firstly I recommend you switch to a lower resolution in future. Your track (192kbps MP3) lasts only four minutes but the file is 5.42mb. If you used for example 64kbps WMA the file would have been half the size without noticeable loss of quality. Robert's was similarly huge so I reduced the resolution before I uploaded it myself!

Back to the music. This is a little more like I was expecting, more overture-like with the Grave-Allegro format, though I wouldn't say is was necessarily a better piece than the Sinfonia. The Grave has ambitions of grandness that aren't ideally realised to my mind, similarly with the Allegro though I prefer this section. If Bach focused more on his primary thematic material and kept the structure more simple and compact it would have... well.. sounded like Handel!

Firstly the format - I thought I converted it to 96 bit! The music I chose was an overture and deliberatley so since this was the comparison we were making with the Beethoven. Your response is equally what I expected and I think the musical criticism you make is untrue and typically biased - Bach achieves a momentum and level of excitement in this that equally matches the Consecration overture.

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'Man know thyself'

**Rod** · 07-23-2006, 10:02 PM

Originally posted by Megan:
I think Rod was being a bit sneaky putting up the Bach Sinfonia , Wir Danken dir Gott, with the wonderful extract from Deborah .

Peter's selection is fairer to Bach and shows that he is in no way inferior to Handel. And for all Handel's rich and wonderful melodic line, Bach has a tonal brilliance and radiance in this orchestral suite no.3 which is unmatched.

'

If you read the posts here you would have been aware that it was Robert who suggested the Sinfonia and I agreed to present it here.

Reading between the (your) lines I gather you regard the Sinfonia to be inferior to Handel's overture, which all things considered I would agree. However after repeated listening I feel I prefer the Sinfonia to the track from Suite Nr3. The Sinfonia is more in Bach's natural territory whereas with the Suite he is venturing more into Handel's (ie public music) and with respect I prefer Handel's method. The reason I chose the Deborah overture was not because it was a stand-out track of Handel's but rather the oratorio was a discussion point here earlier and it fitted the criteria of the current discussion. This is just an average piece from Handel.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-23-2006).]

**Rod** · 07-23-2006, 10:21 PM

Originally posted by Peter:
Firstly the format - I thought I converted it to 96 bit! The music I chose was an overture and deliberatley so since this was the comparison we were making with the Beethoven. Your response is equally what I expected and I think the musical criticism you make is untrue and typically biased - Bach achieves a momentum and level of excitement in this that equally matches the Consecration overture.

The format is definitely 192, the size of the file alone indicates quite a high res.

Regarding the music I acknowledged above that your track was more in line with what I was expecting, or did you not read that either? I thought my critisism was balanced and inoffensive and certainly not biased. Your unpleasant tone cannot be blamed on me this time.

Believe me Beethoven's track, as performed correctly by the Hanover Band at least, is to my ears more exhilarating than this suite extract AND the Handel piece. You have surprised me on this occasion Peter.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-23-2006).]

**Peter** · 07-23-2006, 11:12 PM

Originally posted by Rod:
The format is definitely 192, the size of the file alone indicates quite a high res.

Regarding the music I acknowledged above that your track was more in line with what I was expecting, or did you not read that either? I thought my critisism was balanced and inoffensive and certainly not biased. Your unpleasant tone cannot be blamed on me this time.

Believe me Beethoven's track, as performed correctly by the Hanover Band at least, is to my ears more exhilarating than this suite extract AND the Handel piece. You have surprised me on this occasion Peter.

I didn't intend an unpleasant tone so perhaps your sarcasm was getting the better of you! Your criticism was indeed inoffensive but as I said I expected it anyway!

Just to show that The Consecration overture itself is not beyond criticism I quote Roger Fiske "Beethoven overdoes his sequences and offers no relief from these themes for more than 6 minutes. Nethertheless he handles them with a good deal of spirit and on a festive occasion, such as this overture was written for, the defects would not be noticed in the general excitement of the music."

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'Man know thyself'

**Rod** · 07-24-2006, 12:37 AM

Originally posted by Peter:
I didn't intend an unpleasant tone so perhaps your sarcasm was getting the better of you! Your criticism was indeed inoffensive but as I said I expected it anyway!

Just to show that The Consecration overture itself is not beyond criticism I quote Roger Fiske "Beethoven overdoes his sequences and offers no relief from these themes for more than 6 minutes. Nethertheless he handles them with a good deal of spirit and on a festive occasion, such as this overture was written for, the defects would not be noticed in the general excitement of the music."

Why would I bother to download your track if I had already written a preconceived response? I think back to the Beethoven track and feel no need for 'relief'. There are brief episodes of relative calm throughout for those of a weak constitution. By the way who is Roger Fiske?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-23-2006).]

**Rod** · 07-24-2006, 01:51 AM

Peter it occured to me that you found reason to identify from a third party an alleged flaw in Beethoven's magnificent overture, whilst at the same time offering unreserved praise for the, to my mind, rather average Bach track. You write off my own wholely valid critisism of it without offering a reasoned counter-response. I would appreciate more your own true assessment of the Beethoven, unless you are afraid to reveal that the 'worm has turned' as far as you and Beethoven are conserned. A thought that has been creeping up on me about you in recent months.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-23-2006).]

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