The Genius of...Beethoven

[PDG]

Originally posted by Michael:
I find the Ninth Symphony boring and as regards the "Unfinished", I'd prefer it if it were the "Unstarted".

And I'll deal with you later.....

[robert newman]

Originally posted by Michael:
I find the Ninth Symphony boring and as regards the "Unfinished", I'd prefer it if it were the "Unstarted".


Dear Michael,

I once read of someone (a famous philosopher) who was bored by mountains, trees, rivers and nature as a whole. What really caught his interest were only things that Man had changed by his own hands. He would have liked building sites, hydro electric dams, high rise buildings and sewage treatment works (though he lived too early to ever see any).
Forgive me if his name escapes me - I found his ideas too boring.

Schubert's 9th symphony would not bore you if you were to hear it performed live. I guarantee you of this. It's a piece rather like Berlioz's opera 'Damnation of Faust' in this respect - often hated by modern listeners who want quick fix, high octane reward for listening but, again, amazing in live performance.

The 'Unfinished'never started. If you listen closely it dawns on you that you have stumbled upon it. Its first few bars show this clearly.

Regards




[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 07-19-2006).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by robert newman:


...He could be passionate but I think he can hardly be compared with Beethoven for his dramatic power. He's far more lyrical, more 'Mozartean', to my ears anyway.

Ain't that the truth, a long time ago I heard on the radio what I thought was Mozart and it turned out to be Schubert! Died young but produced nothing better than what Beethoven did by the same age. Schubert's a stylistic patchwork quilt, and some of the stitching is very loose. Needless to say I don't like...

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Ain't that the truth, a long time ago I heard on the radio what I thought was Mozart and it turned out to be Schubert! Died young but produced nothing better than what Beethoven did by the same age. Schubert's a stylistic patchwork quilt, and some of the stitching is very loose. Needless to say I don't like...

Your loss!


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'Man know thyself'

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by robert newman:
Originally posted by Michael:
I find the Ninth Symphony boring and as regards the "Unfinished", I'd prefer it if it were the "Unstarted".


Dear Michael,

I once read of someone (a famous philosopher) who was bored by mountains, trees, rivers and nature as a whole. What really caught his interest were only things that Man had changed by his own hands. He would have liked building sites, hydro electric dams, high rise buildings and sewage treatment works (though he lived too early to ever see any).
Forgive me if his name escapes me - I found his ideas too boring.

Schubert's 9th symphony would not bore you if you were to hear it performed live. I guarantee you of this. It's a piece rather like Berlioz's opera 'Damnation of Faust' in this respect - often hated by modern listeners who want quick fix, high octane reward for listening but, again, amazing in live performance.

The 'Unfinished'never started. If you listen closely it dawns on you that you have stumbled upon it. Its first few bars show this clearly.

Regards


[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 07-19-2006).]

Interesting concept of the Unfinished. Ligeti's Lontano was written with the same idea as something that had been going and suddenly one becomes aware of it. Then gradually the awareness fades as well as the music. But that you mention it in that way, I have to agree with your assesment; one DOES just stumble acrossed it!

[Nightklavier]

Originally posted by robert newman:
The 'Unfinished'never started. If you listen closely it dawns on you that you have stumbled upon it. Its first few bars show this clearly.

Have you ever heard Godowsky's famous "Passacaglia" ? It's a 20 minute long piano piece of virtuoso variations based on the first eight bars of Schubert's Unfinished symphony. Might not be everyone's cup of tea, but since it's a Schubert melody combined with Godowsky's colossal style, it sounds pretty good.

[Michael]

PDG, Robert and all the others:
I am suitably chastened and will punish myself by listening intently to some Schubert. Actually, that's not fair. It is very hard to dislike Schubert as a man or a musician and it really isn't punishment to hear his music.
It is the "heavenly length" of the Ninth that daunts me. This is a work in which the normal repeats should not be observed.
The first movement is tuneful and interesting enough but, like the rest of the symphony, it does go on and on, especially when conductors insist on observing the exposition repeat. I find the whole thing lacking bite; I am struggling to avoid the word "bland".
The famous Trout quintet has the same effect on me. The famous variation movement has an absolutely terrific tune but that's about it. I know of a certain composer who could turn the Schubert tune upside down and write variations on it that would keep you enthralled.
Mozart sometimes affects me that way but never Haydn for some reason.
I have a reasonably broad classical CD collection and I try to give everybody a fair listening to at different times. That is when I can tear myself away from - what's-his-name ............

Michael

[Nightklavier]

Michael - I have my own philosophy about listening to most classical music that others might not share. If I listen to a piece and find it boring, or "bland" or I just can't get into it, I don't blame the music (although there are exceptions), I blame myself.

First, I think listening to an unfamiliar piece for the first time doesn't help us in determining if we like the piece. That may sound outlandish, but surely we all agree that classical music takes multiple hearings in order to grasp it. The music is just too complicated. Unlike rock/pop songs, this music requires attention and repeated listenings. I listened to Beethoven's Septet Op. 20 a long time ago for the first time and found it boring. Just recently, I listened to Brahms' German Requiem for the first time(!) and it didn't move me. Beethoven's Septet took me about, I want to say 4-6 hearings of the entire work to realize what a masterpiece it was. Listening to it once didn't really do anything because my mind wasn't capable of grasping it. It's like someone reading The Bible to you at a rapid pace in a strong accent. I can't make much of it the first time. Maybe the second time I get more out of it. And who knows, the third time may be the charm to finally understand it all.

The same went for Brahms' Requiem. I listened to each movement about 5 times over and after listening to the first 3 movements in such a way, I had to stop the music and say: "My god this is great music." The first time I sat through the whole thing, I could not find a musical footing. Giving it time and repeated listenings, I discovered the hidden wealth of music in it.

I also had a similar experience with Handel (sorry Rod). I recently bought Hyperion's CD of the oratorio, "Deborah" after hearing some good things. I was obviously not familiar with it and a first hearing didn't arouse much. See, it's not the music. Sometimes I want to apologize to great music like I'm in a relationship: "It's not you, it's me." For a week I listened to it off and on, and amazingly, the music now soars gloriously and with brilliance to my ears. All it took was more effort on my part.

The reason I bring this up is because I approached Schubert the same way. His "Death and the Maiden" String Quartet was just impossible on my ears the first few times. After giving it some more chances, the music just creeps out and reveals its qualities. I don't want to assume anything about the way you're listening to the pieces; you might have given the "Trout" Quintet plenty of attention but still can't get around to liking it, I don't know. But all I'm saying is that sometimes this kind of music takes more time and more attention. Many can vouche for Schubert that you're only going to be rewarded if you give him more chances.

[Michael]

I totally agree with you, Nightklavier. In fact, I have to listen to a new piece a great many times before it registers with me. Many people can grasp something after one or two listens but I have never been like that.
The first time I heard a Beethoven symphony (it was the Pastoral) I thought it was the most monotonous, tuneless music I had ever heard but I didn't dismiss it out of hand. My method was to put it on "background" - that is, play it over and over while doing something else. That might sound like sacrilege to most listeners - but when at last the music starts to come together for me, I give it my complete attention.
I'd love to be able to read a score and pick up on everything that is going on but my method still works for me.
I have listened to a lot of different types of music down the years and obviously one cannot like everything!
Incidentally, I never liked the Beethoven Septet much until about five years ago, even though I bought my first recording of it in 1970!

Michael

[PDG]

Originally posted by Michael:
PDG, Robert and all the others:
I am suitably chastened and will punish myself by listening intently to some Schubert. Actually, that's not fair. It is very hard to dislike Schubert as a man or a musician and it really isn't punishment to hear his music.
It is the "heavenly length" of the Ninth that daunts me.

A quote made famous by Chopin, ie. "the heavenly length" of Schubert's piano sonatas. Being daunted by listening may not always be the composer's fault!

I have a reasonably broad classical CD collection and I try to give everybody a fair listening to at different times. That is when I can tear myself away from - what's-his-name ............

Michael

Er.....Schubert??

[PDG]

Originally posted by Rod:
Died young but produced nothing better than what Beethoven did by the same age.

"Than what"?? Anyway, you may be right, but his qualitative output by age 31 was on a par, and for that, I would suggest, he deserves some kind of acknowledgement. Beethoven knew he was going deaf, but Schubert knew he was dying. Think about that.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Nightklavier:


I also had a similar experience with Handel (sorry Rod). I recently bought Hyperion's CD of the oratorio, "Deborah" after hearing some good things. I was obviously not familiar with it and a first hearing didn't arouse much. See, it's not the music. Sometimes I want to apologize to great music like I'm in a relationship: "It's not you, it's me." For a week I listened to it off and on, and amazingly, the music now soars gloriously and with brilliance to my ears. All it took was more effort on my part.

Well in my opinion it's not bad but not as good as it could be from a direction point of view. But it is the ONLY recording of this oratiorio that exists, as is typical with every big Handel piece other than Messiah. It was a rush job, and to a degree a pastiche of some of his hits from days gone by, but it is for sure good enough for Handel's genius to have it's say. By the by Robert King has just been accused of sex crimes to young boys! But imagine if Furtwangler had produced the only recording of the 9th Symphony? Everyone would think it was crap.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin



[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-19-2006).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by PDG:
"Than what"?? Anyway, you may be right, but his qualitative output by age 31 was on a par, and for that, I would suggest, he deserves some kind of acknowledgement. Beethoven knew he was going deaf, but Schubert knew he was dying. Think about that.

Forgive my street talk. I was not really concerned with extra-musical influences, nevertheless Beethoven was for a time a suicidal around that age for what it's worth. I just take the music as I hear it and make a wise and noble judgement.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:

Your loss!

Forgive me Peter, but my ears have been finely tuned with 20 years of listening to the ideal musical formula. That I can, with little effort, detect the flaws of lesser composers is not my loss, it is my curse...

Meanwhile as I type I am listening to some utter crap at the Albert Hall Proms. 'Birthday Music' apparently. Not at my party!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-19-2006).]

[PDG]

Originally posted by Rod:
...nevertheless Beethoven was for a time a suicidal around that age for what it's worth.

So he said but, frankly, I'm not convinced it was ever a serious consideration. He was too beloved.