The Genius of...Beethoven

[Rod]

Originally posted by robert newman:


Dear Rod,

I note you saying 'establishment figures tend to lean towards Bach in the first instance and Mozart in the second and Beethoven somewhere after'.

This is perfectly true. We agree completely about this. But the 'establishment' are those who, during the lives of these people, were largely hostile or indifferent. Things become part of the 'establishment' because the relevance and importance of these people is undeniable over the course of time.

I do not believe Bach was ever a 'establishment' musician. Nor do I think this can be said of Beethoven.

Yes, I bet Beethoven said some wonderful things about Handel. Whatever Beethoven said is well worthy of belief.

The musical establishment recognises the greatness of Bach. So too those who are no part of it.

Very best wishes always

R

As I've said before my problem is not with Bach but the musical intelligencia, who have elevated him above all and sundry.

You see my position is that, because of the academisation of the system, people without the best musical instincts can make it to the top and influence opinion. Thus musical novices and mere enthusiasts can often have a greater grasp of the artistic element of the music than the professors, who at the end of the day are merely Jacks of all composers and masters of none, and whose opinions are merely regurgitated Sprats from the Jacks of previous generations, if I do say so myself. The poor quality of Beethoven performances to this day is proof enough of that.

I am surprised you are not aware of Beethoven's comments about Handel already, no other composer received such high praise from Beethoven.


------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-15-2006).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
I am surprised you are not aware of Beethoven's comments about Handel already, no other composer received such high praise from Beethoven.

Yet though you accept his praise of Handel as some kind of justification of your position, whilst ignoring his praise of Mozart and Bach.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Rod:
As I've said before my problem is not with Bach but the musical intelligencia, who have elevated him above all and sundry.

You see my position is that, because of the academisation of the system, people without the best musical instincts can make it to the top and influence opinion. Thus musical novices and mere enthusiasts can often have a greater grasp of the artistic element of the music than the professors, who at the end of the day are merely Jacks of all composers and masters of none, and whose opinions are merely regurgitated Sprats from the Jacks of previous generations, if I do say so myself. The poor quality of Beethoven performances to this day is proof enough of that.

I am surprised you are not aware of Beethoven's comments about Handel already, no other composer received such high praise from Beethoven.

Sooooo, it's YOU vs MUSICAL INTELLIGENCIZA? Interesting....

[Nightklavier]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
Sooooo, it's YOU vs MUSICAL INTELLIGENCIZA? Interesting....

If it is, can I go ahead and place my bets on Rod?

[Megan]

Although Rod is knowledgable in certain areas, I would not take his word as
ex cathedra .

'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Yet though you accept his praise of Handel as some kind of justification of your position, whilst ignoring his praise of Mozart and Bach.

No Peter, the quotes are not relevant to my argument, I was just joking with Robert. That Beethoven respected Bach and Mozart does not conflict with the notion of Beethoven and Handel being, all things considered, the greater composers. I never use the quotes as justification in their own right. For many years I was aware of the quotes but knew nothing about Handel and made no effort to investigate him or his music, so low was my preconception at that time.

But now you make an issue of the matter you are well aware that all the anecdotal evidence, if accurate, indicates Beethoven's clear prefence for Handel as his favourite composer over both Mozart and Bach, by the time of the late period certainly. This opinion, unusual by contemporary standards, should be of interest in itself I would have thought.

I doubt if you yourself would have been motivated to create a Mozart or Bach forum. I await patiently to be contradicted...




------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Megan:

Although Rod is knowledgable in certain areas, I would not take his word as
ex cathedra .

'

In the areas that count!

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Nightklavier:
If it is, can I go ahead and place my bets on Rod?

I put a tenner on me down the bookies already, but the odds were not lucrative as of course you'd expect for the favourite. I'll give Sorrano 50-1.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[robert newman]

Well Rod, since you can make your point with good humour (and tongue in cheek too, from time to time) let me do the same.

I agree that comparing the truly great composers is a bit like comparing the great artists. To argue that one is greater than the other, etc.

Having said this we can think of Handel, Beethoven, etc. as colours. It would be foolish for anyone to argue that red is a more beautiful colour than green. And I suppose we might even argue that a small handful of composers can be compared to the 'prime colours', one of these being Handel and another Beethoven, for example. All this is fine.

And of course JS Bach is white light - yes ?

(Tongue in cheek) !!!

[Rod]

Originally posted by robert newman:


Well Rod, since you can make your point with good humour (and tongue in cheek too, from time to time) let me do the same.

I agree that comparing the truly great composers is a bit like comparing the great artists. To argue that one is greater than the other, etc.

Having said this we can think of Handel, Beethoven, etc. as colours. It would be foolish for anyone to argue that red is a more beautiful colour than green. And I suppose we might even argue that a small handful of composers can be compared to the 'prime colours', one of these being Handel and another Beethoven, for example. All this is fine.

And of course JS Bach is white light - yes ?

(Tongue in cheek) !!!

One could say this is not the most hi-brow of debates, but all the famous composers had their favourites and villains and confessed these openly. If it's good enough for them it's good enough for me.

For sure it seems I am the ONLY person here, at this Beethoven/Mozart(!) site, who openly rates Beethoven above Mozart and Bach. But when you present me with Bach's Consecration of the House I'll be happy to reconsider my position. I mentioned the colour I perceive from Bach elsewhere.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-16-2006).]

[Nightklavier]

Originally posted by Rod:
For sure it seems I am the ONLY person here, at this Beethoven/Mozart(!) site, who openly rates Beethoven above Mozart and Bach.

You really think so? I thought almost everyone here places Beethoven at the top? If not, consider me the second person then after you. Let me recall what you said earlier: "my point was that establishment figures tend to lean towards Bach in the first instance and Mozart in the second and Beethoven somewhere after". If I had to take those three composers and rank them as such, I would look at it backwards: Beethoven, Mozart, Bach.

Certainly, those three "Gods" can always be rearranged in any order by the "establishment," but I always assumed the Beethoven fans here would immediately assign Beethoven to No. 1, the "greatest composer."

[Rod]

Originally posted by Nightklavier:
You really think so? I thought almost everyone here places Beethoven at the top? If not, consider me the second person then after you. Let me recall what you said earlier: "my point was that establishment figures tend to lean towards Bach in the first instance and Mozart in the second and Beethoven somewhere after". If I had to take those three composers and rank them as such, I would look at it backwards: Beethoven, Mozart, Bach.

Certainly, those three "Gods" can always be rearranged in any order by the "establishment," but I always assumed the Beethoven fans here would immediately assign Beethoven to No. 1, the "greatest composer."

Then there are two of us. The Beethoven fans here should speak up more in the wave of the Mozartian invasion (to name but one)! Believe me a lot of people who visit here rate Beethoven number three or less!

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Rod:
One could say this is not the most hi-brow of debates, but all the famous composers had their favourites and villains and confessed these openly. If it's good enough for them it's good enough for me.

For sure it seems I am the ONLY person here, at this Beethoven/Mozart(!) site, who openly rates Beethoven above Mozart and Bach. But when you present me with Bach's Consecration of the House I'll be happy to reconsider my position. I mentioned the colour I perceive from Bach elsewhere.

I guess then, there are TWO of us here....

THREE...hadn't read all the posts to this point, sorry.

[This message has been edited by Sorrano (edited 07-17-2006).]

[robert newman]

Hi Rod,

I rate Beethoven's 'Consecration of the House' as one of the greatest works of the 19th century (along with various others by the great man).

May I suggest (since you ask for something as exceptional) just one work - that which Bach wrote near the end of his life (1749) for the inauguration of the new Leipzig town council - the Cantata BWV 29, 'Wir danken dir, Gott, wir danken dir'. Its festive overture/sinfonia is surely as marvellous as anything ever written for any festive occasion.

I have the greatest regard for Ludwig van Beethoven and am glad you defend his talent and his great genius. I see it as complementary to that of Bach.

Always sincere regards

[Rod]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Hi Rod,

I rate Beethoven's 'Consecration of the House' as one of the greatest works of the 19th century (along with various others by the great man).

May I suggest (since you ask for something as exceptional) just one work - that which Bach wrote near the end of his life (1749) for the inauguration of the new Leipzig town council - the Cantata BWV 29, 'Wir danken dir, Gott, wir danken dir'. Its festive overture/sinfonia is surely as marvellous as anything ever written for any festive occasion.

I have the greatest regard for Ludwig van Beethoven and am glad you defend his talent and his great genius. I see it as complementary to that of Bach.

Always sincere regards

Can you post the overture track here as an mp3? Or email it to me and I'll post it here. I can't afford these days to buy Bach CDs on spec, his usual church cantata style rarely grabs my interest.

I was thinking about the Beethoven overture. Where could you put it in a programme? As overtures are usually the 'first course' in a concert programme it would run the risk of overwhelming the main course! Perhaps this is one of the reasons (apart from the fact it is misunderstood and usually gets a very awful interpretation) it is never played?

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-17-2006).]