The Genius of...Beethoven

[Preston]

Originally posted by Rod:
In UK, this comming Friday (3rd June) at 9pm the first of a 3 part series 'Beethoven' along the lines of 'The Genius of Mozart' (Charles Hazelwood introduces) but as we know Beethoven is not so much a genius to Hazelwood.

Well, that shows his musical misconception.

Kind Regards,
Preston

[Rod]

Originally posted by Preston:
Well, that shows his musical misconception.

Kind Regards,
Preston

True, but at least his hero isn't JS Bach!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[robert newman]

What ? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

May I gently quote Herr Beethoven ?

"The immortal God of harmony" –

(Beethoven describing JS Bach in his letter to Christoph Breitkopf in 1801).

[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 07-14-2006).]

[Joy]

Originally posted by Michael:
As I may have mentioned elsewhere, this three part drama-documentary is the best I have ever seen in this category. Charles Hazlewood is completely forgiven for his apparent Mozart bias - he seems to be just as much in awe of Beethoven. And, as Tony mentions earlier on in this (resurrected) thread, Paul Rhys is magnificent. In my humble, the best Beethoven ever! He is too tall and his features are not too Beethovenish but he captures the part more than anyone I have seen yet. Only Ed Harris could surpass him and this remains to be seen.
I am still waiting for this to come out on DVD but am not holding my breath. Opus Arte brought out "Eroica", a similar drama-doc last year so they are our only hope.

Michael

Michael, if you hear when and if this is coming out on DVD, please let us know!



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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Michael]

Originally posted by Joy:
Michael, if you hear when and if this is coming out on DVD, please let us know!

I certainly will, Joy, but I wouldn't hold my breath. The same BBC team produced a similar drama-documentary on Mozart a few years ago (the one Rod refers to at the start of this thread) and that hasn't been released yet, which is surprising. This year even Mozart's laundry list is being published.

Michael

[This message has been edited by Michael (edited 07-14-2006).]

[Nightklavier]

Originally posted by robert newman:
May I gently quote Herr Beethoven ?

"The immortal God of harmony" –

(Beethoven describing JS Bach in his letter to Christoph Breitkopf in 1801).

Wasn't it Beethoven who also said Bach's name should not be "brook," it should be "ocean" ?

[Preston]

Originally posted by Michael:
I certainly will, Joy, but I wouldn't hold my breath. The same BBC team produced a similar drama-documentary on Mozart a few years ago (the one Rod refers to at the start of this thread) and that hasn't been released yet, which is surprising. This year even Mozart's laundry list is being published.

Michael

[This message has been edited by Michael (edited 07-14-2006).]

I contacted Opus Arte about "The Genius of Mozart", and they said they couldn't release it because they didn't have full rights, too. They said that another company might release it.

Preston

[Rod]

Originally posted by robert newman:
What ? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

May I gently quote Herr Beethoven ?

"The immortal God of harmony" –

(Beethoven describing JS Bach in his letter to Christoph Breitkopf in 1801).

Ha ha! I've said too much on this subject already. You don't want me to list Beethoven's quotes concerning Handel do you!?

But of course my point was that establishment figures tend to lean towards Bach in the first instance and Mozart in the second and Beethoven somewhere after.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-15-2006).]

[Agnes Selby]

There must be something wrong with my hearing.

I can't hear the competition between Mozart and Beethoven - only great music. When I listen to Mozart, I love listening to the music otherwise I would not be listening.

When chose to listen to Beethoven, I love
listening to his music. Otherwise I would not be listening.

I love them both. Is there something wrong with my hearing? I do not have a preference.

Regards,
Agnes.

[Nightklavier]

I've said the same thing, Agnes, responding to a subject of Bach vs Handel. They were both masters and both composers of great music. But sometimes these kinds of things (Mozart vs Beethoven, Liszt vs Chopin etc) spur interesting discussion, so I don't mind hearing from each point of view.

What aggravates me most of all, instead of a comparison between demi-god composers like Mozart and Beethoven, is a neglect of the ones who were actually just as good if not better. That's where I think Rod is right regarding the significance of Handel. Handel is in a much higher league than musicologists and even the general public tend to think. Everybody knows him by the Messiah, which is certainly a masterpiece, but I've heard works from Handel that sound even better. For some reason Handel has been snubbed alot, and placed in a permanent marriage with the Messiah, like Pachelbel to his Canon. Maybe it's different in Europe, but here in America, I've *never* seen anything played by Handel except the Messiah. They can't even just once try the Water Music. Unjustly and sadly, this kind of thing happens to a lot of composers.

Getting back to my original topic, it's logical and possible to compare composers and declare one superior, but I think this can only apply when it's a comparison between the really good ones and the mediocre ones. Beethoven vs Hummel... well of course Beethoven wins. Mozart vs Clementi... certainly Mozart comes ahead. Wagner vs Hans von Bulow... Wagner for sure. You can't deny Bach's skill and compositional quality to, say, Rameau, as well. However, I can't engage the Bach vs Handel or Mozart vs Beethoven argument. It's like comparing Michelangelo and Raphael. I find great art between two artists extremely difficult to compare and then judge one better than the other. In the end, I take Agnes' point of view and just appreciate them both.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Agnes Selby:

There must be something wrong with my hearing.

I can't hear the competition between Mozart and Beethoven - only great music. When I listen to Mozart, I love listening to the music otherwise I would not be listening.

When chose to listen to Beethoven, I love
listening to his music. Otherwise I would not be listening.

I love them both. Is there something wrong with my hearing? I do not have a preference.

Regards,
Agnes.

Maybe you're right, but when people express a preference they should get it right! Mr Hazelwood certainly made his preference clear.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-15-2006).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Nightklavier:
I've said the same thing, Agnes, responding to a subject of Bach vs Handel. They were both masters and both composers of great music. But sometimes these kinds of things (Mozart vs Beethoven, Liszt vs Chopin etc) spur interesting discussion, so I don't mind hearing from each point of view.

What aggravates me most of all, instead of a comparison between demi-god composers like Mozart and Beethoven, is a neglect of the ones who were actually just as good if not better. That's where I think Rod is right regarding the significance of Handel. Handel is in a much higher league than musicologists and even the general public tend to think. Everybody knows him by the Messiah, which is certainly a masterpiece, but I've heard works from Handel that sound even better. For some reason Handel has been snubbed alot, and placed in a permanent marriage with the Messiah, like Pachelbel to his Canon. Maybe it's different in Europe, but here in America, I've *never* seen anything played by Handel except the Messiah. They can't even just once try the Water Music. Unjustly and sadly, this kind of thing happens to a lot of composers...

Quite so, which is why when by chance I had the first opportuntiy to listen to some of these 'unknown' Handel pieces I was truely shocked, I still am today. After Bach the establishment has no room for any other Baroque heroes, they are merely polite about Handel, at best. I have found many of the gushing comments I've read or heard about Bach quite bizarre. Which is why I described this tendancy as the 'Cult of Bach'.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Joy]

Originally posted by Agnes Selby:

There must be something wrong with my hearing.

I can't hear the competition between Mozart and Beethoven - only great music. When I listen to Mozart, I love listening to the music otherwise I would not be listening.

When chose to listen to Beethoven, I love
listening to his music. Otherwise I would not be listening.

I love them both. Is there something wrong with my hearing? I do not have a preference.

Regards,
Agnes.

No, there's nothing wrong with your hearing at all! I feel the same way. Both are wonderful composers at what they did. It depends on my mood at the time who I have a feeling to listen to.



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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Joy]

Originally posted by Michael:
I certainly will, Joy, but I wouldn't hold my breath. The same BBC team produced a similar drama-documentary on Mozart a few years ago (the one Rod refers to at the start of this thread) and that hasn't been released yet, which is surprising. This year even Mozart's laundry list is being published.

Michael

[This message has been edited by Michael (edited 07-14-2006).]

I know what you mean about the slowness of releasing certain projects. Well, if you hear of anything let me know, sounds like a great program! Thanks!



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'Truth and beauty joined'

[robert newman]

Dear Rod,

I note you saying 'establishment figures tend to lean towards Bach in the first instance and Mozart in the second and Beethoven somewhere after'.

This is perfectly true. We agree completely about this. But the 'establishment' are those who, during the lives of these people, were largely hostile or indifferent. Things become part of the 'establishment' because the relevance and importance of these people is undeniable over the course of time.

I do not believe Bach was ever a 'establishment' musician. Nor do I think this can be said of Beethoven.

Yes, I bet Beethoven said some wonderful things about Handel. Whatever Beethoven said is well worthy of belief.

The musical establishment recognises the greatness of Bach. So too those who are no part of it.

Very best wishes always

R