Beethoven deafness.

[joel fienen]

How could Beethoven write when he was deaf? Let me give one of my theories. I had watched a movie on him not to long ago. He was sitting at the piano and the vibration of the strings would vibrate into his ears. Could you please eytell me your theories on how he could write while being deaf.

[Joy]

Originally posted by joel fienen:
How could Beethoven write when he was deaf? Let me give one of my theories. I had watched a movie on him not to long ago. He was sitting at the piano and the vibration of the strings would vibrate into his ears. Could you please eytell me your theories on how he could write while being deaf.

I just heard a rather lengthy discussion on this very topic on my classical radio station. They suggested that you don't really need to actually hear in order to write music since most composers already have the tunes in their head and can just write them down on paper. Of course, if you can hear that would make it a lot easier as you can then take the piece to the piano (or whatever) and listen to it directly. In either case, I think it would be terrible hard to write music without actually listening to it. Think of a blind Picasso or a mute Pavarotti.
Joy

[Peter]

Originally posted by joel fienen:
How could Beethoven write when he was deaf? Let me give one of my theories. I had watched a movie on him not to long ago. He was sitting at the piano and the vibration of the strings would vibrate into his ears. Could you please eytell me your theories on how he could write while being deaf.

This was no problem - as Joy says the sounds are already in the composer's head, in the same way that an experienced musician can read a music score and hear the sounds without playing it or having it performed. Students doing a music theory exam have to write out 4 part pieces without any access to a musical instrument. It is far more of a problem for a performer when hearing the sounds you produce is vital - this is where Beethoven really had problems and of course had to give up his career as a soloist.

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'Man know thyself'

[Immortal Beloved]

Originally posted by joel fienen:
How could Beethoven write when he was deaf? Let me give one of my theories. I had watched a movie on him not to long ago. He was sitting at the piano and the vibration of the strings would vibrate into his ears. Could you please eytell me your theories on how he could write while being deaf.

were you thinking of that Immortal Beloved movie or something else? I can't even tell. He had music in his mind so much that most of the time made him crazy.

[oboe_15]

As a composer myself, I never (and probably never will) used a Piano to hear what I have just written. And because I play the Oboe and cor anglais (well duh) and flute, I can only hear one melodic line at a time. So half of the time I just don't even bother, I just wait until I have finished the work and then get my Teacher to play it on the piano. And I hardly ever re-write or edit anything. But I see what I have just written it and I hum it in my head. Of course that is nothing compared to deafness, but what I am trying to say is that you don't need to hear the work to know what it sounds like - unless you were deaf from birth which would be a different story alltogether! And because Beethoven was a virtuoso pianist before he went deaf, I am sure that he was more than capable of playing the tune in his head. Because if I can, THEN HE DEFINATELY COULD HAVE!!!

Beethoven rocks!

From oboe_15

[joel fienen]

Hey Peter!
My cousin and I agree with you 100%. Teachers over here think that we should learn how to write music by ear and on the piano. Other teahers think that it is ok to let them do what they want to do. I know for a fact that they teach with the piano as their teaching tool. You can check my dad's web site to check this out. It is www.dfienen@gac.edu. You have to understand when Beethoven was learning how to write music he was learning by piano and also he was going deaf.

When he was growing up he had a very abusive father. He also did not have very good teachers.

Did you know that Beethoven had a math disability? So that is why some of his time singuatures do not make any sense.

[Peter]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by joel fienen:
Hey Peter!
My cousin and I agree with you 100%.

I'm flattered!

Teachers over here think that we should learn how to write music by ear and on the piano. Other teahers think that it is ok to let them do what they want to do. I know for a fact that they teach with the piano as their teaching tool. You can check my dad's web site to check this out. It is www.dfienen@gac.edu.

I think it is important to be able to write without the aid of an instrument - Berlioz said composing with a piano was the death of all originality. Incidentally your link doesn't work!


You have to understand when Beethoven was learning how to write music he was learning by piano and also he was going deaf.

Beethoven would compose in his head, hence the sketchbooks he used whilst out walking - he would then try out his ideas on the piano - not the other way round!

When he was growing up he had a very abusive father. He also did not have very good teachers.

He was fortunate in one particular teacher - C.G.Neefe who introduced him to the works of J.S.Bach.

Did you know that Beethoven had a math disability? So that is why some of his time singuatures do not make any sense.

Simple addition and subtraction were surprisingly for a musician quite beyond him - he obviously had never been taught or simply had no interest. This had no effect on his time signatures!

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'Man know thyself'

[Claudie MICAULT]

I agree with you : Neefe was a very good teacher for B. !

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Claudie

[joel fienen]

Peter
Thank you for your response.
joel

[leoswill]

Originally posted by joel fienen:
How could Beethoven write when he was deaf? Let me give one of my theories. I had watched a movie on him not to long ago. He was sitting at the piano and the vibration of the strings would vibrate into his ears. Could you please eytell me your theories on how he could write while being deaf.

I am afflicted with progressive deafness much like Beethoven. It began around the age of 21 and by the age of 23 I had hearing aides. Which were not available in Beethoven’s era. As for the question I would like to relay the ability in terms that all can understand. Being a deaf poet I can relate to him and his ailment.

If you were to lose your hearing tomorrow you would still remember words and how they were pronounced. You would be able to read a poem and recite it’s meter in your head. It would continue to flow as you read it hearing or not.

Think of sheet music as another form of language. He knew the meter and the notes as if they were words. These notes were second nature to him as he was well versed in their use. I am sure he could write sheet music as easily as he wrote letters. Everyone else’s statements are correct. He listened to it in his head while putting it on paper.

As for playing it to ensure it‘s perfection. I have read in many of his biographies that he eventually cut the legs off his piano’s so they would rest flat on the floor. He would sit in front of it and feel the vibrations through the flooring. Each note has a certain vibration. The deeper the note the more it vibrates. Next time you pass one of those organ stores in a mall go in and put your hand on the speaker. Touch the key to the far right then the far left . There’s a major difference in the vibrations. You can almost feel the sound it creates. Hope this helped explain it. Teresa AKA Leoswill

[Rod]

Originally posted by leoswill:

As for playing it to ensure it‘s perfection. I have read in many of his biographies that he eventually cut the legs off his piano’s so they would rest flat on the floor. He would sit in front of it and feel the vibrations through the flooring. Each note has a certain vibration. The deeper the note the more it vibrates. Next time you pass one of those organ stores in a mall go in and put your hand on the speaker. Touch the key to the far right then the far left . There’s a major difference in the vibrations. You can almost feel the sound it creates. Hope this helped explain it. Teresa AKA Leoswill

I think it is a bit of a myth that the pianos were legless because of his deafness. I think it was more to do with B's gypsy lifestyle, always moving around, and his general dendancy for neglect. I'm sure playing the piano on the floor would not have been a particularly inspiring activity.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[SR]

The greater question for me has always been not did Beethoven write deaf, but did he end up with EXACTLY what he intended. Is the 9th symphony we hear just what he had in his head ?

Steve

[Peter]

Originally posted by SR:
The greater question for me has always been not did Beethoven write deaf, but did he end up with EXACTLY what he intended. Is the 9th symphony we hear just what he had in his head ?

Steve

Taking performance discrepancies into account and the fact that people hear and feel things in different ways I should say yes. It is no mystery that a deaf person who was trained as a musician can write music - I can hear the notes of a score without playing them. It was more of a handicap in this regard for Bach, Handel and Delius going blind.

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'Man know thyself'