Do you really know Beethoven or do you know events from his life?
It has dawned on me, when people speak of universal thinkers it's as if they were talking about fictional charaters. Some of the highest, Socrates, Plato, Da Vinci, Keppler, Leibniz, Ben Franklin, Alexender Hamilton, Fredick Schiller, Mozart, Beethoven, Dr Martin Luther King, Lyndon LaRouche and etc.. When speaking of these people they leave out the most important issue of their lives, which was Political Freedom! These wise men did something that people in society today would never dream of doing; work for the betterment of Mankind. Reader this is from the highest stand point of all,(you ready?) We human beings have short lives, so what do we spend our talent on? Their is not one Universal Genius who didn't live for the Future of Mankind; what's the purpose of living if your going to die anyway? Well a wise man can see that the gift is the Future. What happens to the person who live for the soul and not the body? That Soul has Immortality, the greatest reward of all! My point is, look at yourself as someone of historical importance, because in 3006 or 4006 mankind will be looking to see if you spent your talent wisely,or if you had a one night stand with life! (laughing...)
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The Future is very Bright,because the Universe and Stars are in my sight!! -
Very profound thoughts! Yes and I think Beethoven was well aware of this - only on few occasions did he pander to popular taste such as Wellingtons sieg, but this is understandable given the huge sense of relief at Napoleon's defeat. Repyling to criticism of the late quartets he said that posterity would understand them and he was right.
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'Man know thyself'
[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 07-06-2006).]'Man know thyself' -
You mention Lyndon LaRouche so casually in the same breath as Beethoven, Socrates, Da Vinci, Plato & Mozart?!Originally posted by 18-ceo:
It has dawned on me, when people speak of universal thinkers it's as if they were talking about fictional charaters. Some of the highest, Socrates, Plato, Da Vinci, Keppler, Leibniz, Ben Franklin, Alexender Hamilton, Fredick Schiller, Mozart, Beethoven, Dr Martin Luther King, Lyndon LaRouche and etc.
Good lord. Talk about a Jungian binding of incommensurates!
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A most questionable collection indeed. It is interesting he refers to Franklin casually as 'Ben..', but King most formally as 'Dr Martin Luther..'. Perhaps the former was a friend of the family?Originally posted by DavidO:
Good lord. Talk about a Jungian binding of incommensurates!
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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-07-2006).]Comment
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[quote]Originally posted by DavidO:
I often do.
Talk about a Jungian binding of incommensurates!
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Well, the topic was Universal thinkers and their qualities, and quite frankly my good man,Lyndon LaRouche has passed the Test!!Originally posted by DavidO:
You mention Lyndon LaRouche so casually in the same breath as Beethoven, Socrates, Da Vinci, Plato & Mozart?!Originally posted by 18-ceo:
It has dawned on me, when people speak of universal thinkers it's as if they were talking about fictional charaters. Some of the highest, Socrates, Plato, Da Vinci, Keppler, Leibniz, Ben Franklin, Alexender Hamilton, Fredick Schiller, Mozart, Beethoven, Dr Martin Luther King, Lyndon LaRouche and etc.
Good lord. Talk about a Jungian binding of incommensurates!
The Future is very Bright,because the Universe and Stars are in my sight!!Comment
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It is inaccurate to speak of Socrates and Plato as apostles of political freedom. Socrates despised the democracy in Athens, saying that men who had to work every day did not have anough time to think political issues through properly. He favored aristocrats, who had the leisure to think, and aligned himself with a highly reactionary right wing party which was later responsible for putting many democrats to death. He was ultimately executed in revenge for this, although other trumped up charges were used as a pretext. (Also he could easily have chosen temporary exile rather than death, but refused to do so.)
Plato also disapproved of democracy and in his 'Republic' presents an ideal state ruled by philosophers with political and other liberties severely curtailed. One activity that might lead to improper thoughts and feelings in the citizens was to be banned outright: music.
[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 07-08-2006).]See my paintings and sculptures at Saatchiart.com. In the search box, choose Artist and enter Charles Zigmund.Comment
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The relationship between democracy and music is very interesting and Chassz is right to point out that even in the democratic Greece of Plato and Aristotle etc. music was deemed to be suspect or seditious if not rigidly regulated.
And countless musical masterpieces have been written in times/places where there were forms of government that were oppressive. One could almost be forgiven for thinking that music exists despite democracy. But that begs the question of what democracy actually is. It exists, like music, in so many forms that it seems ridiculous that anyone should ever have gone to war for it.
Was there ever a war on musical issues ? I can't think of a case. But, again, musicians have been suspect in all ages. I can only conclude that music/musicality is by far the most dangerous and desirable state of structuring human society, more so than 'democracy' itself.
The ultimate heresy, to believe that the music of Beethoven, Bach etc has already done more good for this world and for mankind than all the armies and weapons programmes of this world, and that it, music, will continue to do so.
It is perfectly true that 'classical' music is now part of state culture and is not seen as a threat. True too that its creation was often patronised by leaders of states themselves. But its patronage may have occurred to defuse its revolutionary potential. Just as one marries a church to the state to defuse (at least to some degree) the revolutionary potential of the church.
Music is not revolutionary because it is new or because it challenges our ears. It is revolutionary because it separates the great thinkers from the mere politicians.
[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 07-08-2006).]Comment
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Quite so, by amazing coincidence I have just been browsing through my battered copy of Republic.Originally posted by Chaszz:
Plato also disapproved of democracy and in his 'Republic' presents an ideal state ruled by philosophers with political and other liberties severely curtailed. One activity that might lead to improper thoughts and feelings in the citizens was to be banned outright: music.
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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod CorkinComment
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A rapper created a big stir recently here in the UK by writing a 'song' supporting suicide bombers. The BBC made a big deal of a complete nobody and provided him and his track with a great deal of exposure, so one could say the BBC (amongst others) was complicit in promoting his warped propaganda, as is so often the case. Music can still be a threat it seems, if this can construed as music of course.Originally posted by robert newman:
...Music is not revolutionary because it is new or because it challenges our ears. It is revolutionary because it separates the great thinkers from the mere politicians.
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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-08-2006).]Comment
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Here's a lesson on "Truth!" What was the intention of Socrates, and why was young Plato a follower of the man? Well, if you read the dialogues carfully what you are witnessing is the same method as Bach's " Jesu Meine Frude!" How is this? How's does one discover Truth? Socrates approach the problem by applying a method, the man was a political scientist, by questioning an hypothesis until it's flawless,then you've found something very interesting! Now Plato a follower, applied Socrates same princple to Physical geometry, and he discover the Platonic solids! But look at how Plato leaves the dialogues just as the conversation played out, and Bach's discovery has the same dialogues within his "Jesu Meine Frude", what your witnessing is 4 to 5 idea's in dialogue format with each species of voice, Soprano, Tenor, Alto, and Bass. I sing this piece all the time, Lyndon LaRouche suggested it, what your get is a Universal Idea, Bach broke the rules and said "The music is within the Idea's, not the notes!" Socrates and Plato had the same hypothesis, "What seperates man from beast?", the ability to discover Universal Idea's, like "Truth!!" This has everything to do with politics and these Genius were very political!!! (Wow, I just made a discovery just now, laughing...)Originally posted by Chaszz:
It is inaccurate to speak of Socrates and Plato as apostles of political freedom. Socrates despised the democracy in Athens, saying that men who had to work every day did not have anough time to think political issues through properly. He favored aristocrats, who had the leisure to think, and aligned himself with a highly reactionary right wing party which was later responsible for putting many democrats to death. He was ultimately executed in revenge for this, although other trumped up charges were used as a pretext. (Also he could easily have chosen temporary exile rather than death, but refused to do so.)
Plato also disapproved of democracy and in his 'Republic' presents an ideal state ruled by philosophers with political and other liberties severely curtailed. One activity that might lead to improper thoughts and feelings in the citizens was to be banned outright: music.
[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 07-08-2006).]
The Future is very Bright,because the Universe and Stars are in my sight!!Comment
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Er ... I'll have what he's having.Originally posted by 18-ceo:
Here's a lesson on "Truth!" What was the intention of Socrates, and why was young Plato a follower of the man? Well, if you read the dialogues carfully what you are witnessing is the same method as Bach's " Jesu Meine Frude!" How is this? How's does one discover Truth? Socrates approach the problem by applying a method, the man was a political scientist, by questioning an hypothesis until it's flawless,then you've found something very interesting! Now Plato a follower, applied Socrates same princple to Physical geometry, and he discover the Platonic solids! But look at how Plato leaves the dialogues just as the conversation played out, and Bach's discovery has the same dialogues within his "Jesu Meine Frude", what your witnessing is 4 to 5 idea's in dialogue format with each species of voice, Soprano, Tenor, Alto, and Bass. I sing this piece all the time, Lyndon LaRouche suggested it, what your get is a Universal Idea, Bach broke the rules and said "The music is within the Idea's, not the notes!" Socrates and Plato had the same hypothesis, "What seperates man from beast?", the ability to discover Universal Idea's, like "Truth!!" This has everything to do with politics and these Genius were very political!!! (Wow, I just made a discovery just now, laughing...)
[This message has been edited by DavidO (edited 07-08-2006).]Comment
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Well you can't, it's only available on prescription.Comment
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Respectfully, I would submit that this is a most disagreeable point of view because of what I sense to be its implied conceit and inherent arrogance.Originally posted by 18-ceo:
...look at yourself as someone of historical importance, because in 3006 or 4006 mankind will be looking to see if you spent your talent wisely,or if you had a one night stand with life!
Perhaps my favourite lesson in wisdom of the ages comes from the anonymous rabbis who put together a small work known as Pirqei Avot. In it, they stated a leitmotif which I would paraphrase as Yours is not to complete the work of this world... nor is it yours to shirk from that work.
In other words, each of us, in our own and quiet manner, can and do contribute to some passage of moment in this world. The great cathedrals were not built by a single overarching entity, but rather by thousands of workers who failed to leave any other mark in this world. The horrific wars of this world left countlessly unnamed victims and were fought by innumerable and historically unknown combatants.
Psalm 49 is a must read on this topic simply because it establishes our finity.
In view of this panegyric, it does not matter to me what is known or established about me in the year 3006 let alone 2006. All that really matters, and all that should really matter, is whether or not I somehow have done something, which in some way, shape, or form could be construed as participating in the work of this world. Alas, that is something that I will never know.
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Must it be? It must be!Must it be? It must be!Comment
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