Beethoven Academie auctioned on eBay

[PDG]

Originally posted by Rod:
You flatter me. I have no musical education at all, self taught you might say. Never been involved in the music trade at any level.

Rodders, do you know Alan Price's fabulous Jarrow Song? On more than just one level, I tend to think of you when I now hear it (just call me a soft southerner......)

[PDG]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
Second, it is forbidden to auction people on eBay.

Hofrat

This needs no further comment! It is actually forbidden to auction DNA. Still, close enough (but no cigar).

[PDG]

Originally posted by Chaszz:

Bach has provided me and countless others with deep dramatic emotional experiences in the religious music, like the B Minor Mass, and sublime joy in the secular music like the Musical Offering.

Okay, call me a renegade, but I say that this famous Mass is surely in D major?

[PDG]

Originally posted by Peter:
Interesting - I wonder how they were able to do that as there were apparently many bids on this going as high as around £80,000 last time I looked? Were these bidders perhaps management or orchestra members, in which case surely they were breaking the legal requirements?

Peter, I bet your tax returns are up-to-date, and you even have a TV licence??!!

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by PDG:
This needs no further comment! It is actually forbidden to auction DNA. Still, close enough (but no cigar).

Story from BBC NEWS:

Belgian orchestra seeks eBay sale
A Belgian orchestra which was short of funds put itself up for sale on online auction site eBay, but later withdrew the sale, saying it had been a "stunt".
They wanted to make a protest after the Flemish government cut their funding for the next three seasons.

The orchestra's manager, Bart Michiels, says Beethoven Academie needs 1m euros to keep going for the next year with 75 concerts already booked up.

Before withdrawing, it received a bid of 100,000 euros (£70,000).

The orchestra, which is based in the Flemish city of Mechelen (Malines in French), has 40 musicians and four staff.

They took down the listing themselves for "moral and judicial reasons", Mr Michiels told the BBC News website.

They are now trying to think of other options to save the orchestra, which is "still available", he added.

Cry for help

Mr Michiels described the move as a "cry of despair because we are quite sure for the time being that we will stop existing in a couple of months", he told the BBC's Newshour programme.

EBay Belgium says it is quite common for people to offer their services on the site - as the orchestra did - but it is illegal to buy or sell people, a spokesman told the BBC News website.

The orchestra would also have had to honour any sale even if they had sold for less than 1m euros.

They have now posted an independent petition on their website and hope a generous benefactor may respond to their appeal.

[Rod]

Originally posted by PDG:
Rodders, do you know Alan Price's fabulous Jarrow Song? On more than just one level, I tend to think of you when I now hear it (just call me a soft southerner......)

I'm not sure, if I heard it I might recognise it, but I know Jarrow and I do not want to be associated with it, at any level.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Hofrat:

Story from BBC NEWS:

Belgian orchestra seeks eBay sale
A Belgian orchestra which was short of funds put itself up for sale on online auction site eBay, but later withdrew the sale, saying it had been a "stunt".
They wanted to make a protest after the Flemish government cut their funding for the next three seasons.

The orchestra's manager, Bart Michiels, says Beethoven Academie needs 1m euros to keep going for the next year with 75 concerts already booked up.

Before withdrawing, it received a bid of 100,000 euros (£70,000).

The orchestra, which is based in the Flemish city of Mechelen (Malines in French), has 40 musicians and four staff.

They took down the listing themselves for "moral and judicial reasons", Mr Michiels told the BBC News website.

They are now trying to think of other options to save the orchestra, which is "still available", he added.

Cry for help

Mr Michiels described the move as a "cry of despair because we are quite sure for the time being that we will stop existing in a couple of months", he told the BBC's Newshour programme.

EBay Belgium says it is quite common for people to offer their services on the site - as the orchestra did - but it is illegal to buy or sell people, a spokesman told the BBC News website.

The orchestra would also have had to honour any sale even if they had sold for less than 1m euros.

They have now posted an independent petition on their website and hope a generous benefactor may respond to their appeal.

I wouldn't be happy if I'd placed that £70,000 bid!

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
I've listened intensively to the B Minor Mass and, like the St Matthew, I was actually expecting something more than what Bach seems to offer - the grand moments seems relatively weak compared to Handel's great anthems or the big chouses in the Missa Solemnis, the gestures are not as convincing. Concerning the more solemn moments the music is nice but the emotion seems contrived because of the strict churchly tonality and frameworks that are omnipresent. Those in the Missa for example seem more sincere and heartfelt in their less contrained structures. Basically Bach sounds more corporate, I've said this before, Beethoven and Handel are musical free spirits in comparison.

It's not that I'm saying Bach's music is bad but considering the nature of his output this is not to my mind the ultimate solution to the art of music, not by a long way. This is my ulimate point.

I hear lots about the sublime joy of the Musical Offering, but Handel wrote like this all the time, many times people have mentioned to me about the good spirit of Handel's music whe I've played it, real joy for the system, even in the solemnest of largos. This is what I mean when I said about going from the dark into the bright sunlight when hearing the two composers one after the other.

As I've also said before my position is only offensive not because I am taking a side, it is the side I am taking that offends. If I'd said the very same words but replaced 'Bach' with 'Handel' you would have not concerned yourself one iota. So you cannot have any moral authority on the matter, none more than myself at any rate. And anyone who thinks I'm crazy for having Beethoven as my benchmark for quality really needs to ask themselves what is it they really get out of their classical music. For some it serves the same function as pop, they like the sound regardless of the composer but there is minimal intellectual engagement or consideration. That's not me.

As I said above, we are not talking about Bach at all, but your inability to hear Bach. Two discrete, different subjects.

If I get some time I will post my fledgling attempts to codify a summary of types of musical listeners. Too much excellent painting and sculpture going on at the moment to spare the time. I am white hot right now. But it has to do with the capacity of listeners to respond to counterpoint vs. homophony, joy vs. sadness, simple harmony vs. distant keys, and several other categories of musical expression and form. As an oversimplified example, those who are not enthusiastic to a fairly high degree about counterpoint will find it difficult to appreciate Bach. These likes and dislikes in listeners could be explored and charted using brain scan imaging as they now do for so many studies of the brains's regions and functions. End of story for the time being.

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by PDG:
Okay, call me a renegade, but I say that this famous Mass is surely in D major?

There are smaller masses in F, A, G and G minor, but none in D. The two-hour B Minor Mass is probably not as widely listened to as many of Bach's shorter works, but is one of the incredible monuments of Western civilization, with a wealth of passionate, stirring choruses that express many ranges of emotion. I highly recommend a gradual approach to it, a few movements at a time, for those who have not experienced it.
SOME of the arias are lengthy and not paricularly inspired and can be skipped, while others are great.

You may be thinking of the Magnificat in D Major, a religious work that is longer than a cantata but not as long as a Mass. A beautiful, sparkling 1/2 hour work that can provide a great opportunity for getting to know Bach's church music.

[PDG]

[quote]Originally posted by Hofrat:

EBay Belgium says it is quite common for people to offer their services on the site - as the orchestra did - but it is illegal to buy or sell people, a spokesman told the BBC News website.

There aren't many Belgians I'd like to buy anyway, although I think Justine Henin-Hardene will win Wimbledon tomorrow! (Loose connection, I know.....sorry.....)

[PDG]

Originally posted by Rod:
I'm not sure, if I heard it I might recognise it, but I know Jarrow and I do not want to be associated with it, at any level.

Oh, I'm sure you'd know it! It was a no.4 hit in 1974. Anyway, didn't mean to step on your toes about the town; obviously a personal thing for you, 'nuff said.

[PDG]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
There are smaller masses in F, A, G and G minor, but none in D.

Chaszz, I've not listened to the mass for many a moon, but I just remember feeling that the associated D major was stronger than the credited B minor. Like I said, call me a renegade.....

[Rod]

Originally posted by PDG:
Oh, I'm sure you'd know it! It was a no.4 hit in 1974. Anyway, didn't mean to step on your toes about the town; obviously a personal thing for you, 'nuff said.

Not that personal, it's just a bit of a rough place. I'm from South Shields, the town next door, so I suppose there's a bit of rivalry for who's the roughest. But strangely enough neither town has a Beethoven connection.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-07-2006).]

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by PDG:
Chaszz, I've not listened to the mass for many a moon, but I just remember feeling that the associated D major was stronger than the credited B minor. Like I said, call me a renegade.....

Oh, that's what you mean. I suspect that in many cases the nominal key of a work is not as strong as some other key in the work. Just a naming convention, really.

As a painter who often struggles to come up with a meaningful title for a picture, I sometimes envy the composer who can easily say "Quartet for Piano and Strings in Eb." I've even come close to naming a work that way.