Genius, or not?

[Euan Mackinnon]

Hi
I'm new here and would like to ask the following two-part question:

1. How would you define Genius? (If you prefer to quote your favourite definition of 'Genius', please give the reference - thank you).

2. Given your definition, is Beethoven a genius? And what about Mozart, (JS) Bach, Schubert? Other major composers?

Thanks

Euan

[Ludwig]

Mozart is a genius from the first moment of his life.Beethoven...Well his genius come not from his DNA, but from his LIFE, his love to the ART, his dream to live in a better world.And if you ask me, in these circumstance Beethoven is the REAL genius.

[robert newman]

I would define Genius as being the creative part of human existence which has been activated by being aligned to the source of creativity. It's not very often that this occurs naturally. If, for example, a person switches on a radio receiver it's not very often that the signal is immediately received at the optimum level. The antenna must be moved to best catch the radio signal. Each person is a genius since each person has the potential to be creative. But not all people see their creative potential realised. Some sacrifice it. Others vainly believe genius consists solely of academic study or copying others. A genius learns like all others but in the process of learning his instinct, his intutition leads him further than books and, to some degree, it takes over from books.
So the genius is neither ignorant nor learned. He is both at the same time.

Notice how JS Bach does little to explain how he achieves what he musically achieves, despite the fact that he is regarded as perhaps one of the greatest teachers of musical principles who ever lived. Much of his music lacks marks of expression. He certainly didn't write volumes on his teachings or on his ideas about music. He gives us only results and encourages us to find things within his works. This is musical genius, for sure.

Of course Beethoven and Bach were musical geniuses. They are different expressions of musical creativity. In the case of Beethoven he shows such sureness in what he finally writes that he homes in on his ideas quite wonderfully, even despite later loss of his hearing. Such a thing is genius by any definition. A work of genius is a demonstration of economy.

Bach idolised nobody. Nor did Beethoven. This too seems to be a feature of genius. I think the genius realises his own God-given potential. Certainly, geniuses are as full of errors as everyone else. But instinct/ intuition is finely developed and it leads him in to more and more creativity.

The right environment, opportunity etc. all help, of course. But there is only one JS Bach, one Beethoven, and of course only one of us. Genius is the revealing of perfection through imperfection.

Regards




[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 04-29-2006).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Euan Mackinnon:
Hi
I'm new here and would like to ask the following two-part question:

1. How would you define Genius? (If you prefer to quote your favourite definition of 'Genius', please give the reference - thank you).

2. Given your definition, is Beethoven a genius? And what about Mozart, (JS) Bach, Schubert? Other major composers?

Thanks

Euan

The oxford illustrated dictionary defines it as a person with exalted intellectual power, instinctive and extraordinary imaginative, creative or inventive capacity.

In reference to composers I think if by major you mean great, then yes genius is the word to use. Beethoven was certainly one of the greatest of all composers and without doubt a genius.

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'Man know thyself'

[robert newman]

Lives of great men all remind us
We can make our lives sublime,
And, departing, leave behind us
Footprints on the sands of time;

Footprints, that perhaps another,
Sailing o'er life's solemn main,
A forlorn and shipwrecked brother,
Seeing, shall take heart again.

(From Longfellow's 'Psalm of Life')

[PDG]

Regarding Beethoven, I would say that no other creative artist in history has so perfectly wedded his instinctive talent with his feeble human failings, and yet through an unbreakable spirit, has produced works which are instantly recognised as eternal masterpieces, even by his peers.

But of course, we are probably just scratching the surface. I love Addorno's comment on the opening horses' trot of the Les Adieux sonata: "It underscores even more hope than the Four Gospels".

[PDG]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Lives of great men all remind us
We can make our lives sublime,
And, departing, leave behind us
Footprints on the sands of time;

Footprints, that perhaps another,
Sailing o'er life's solemn main,
A forlorn and shipwrecked brother,
Seeing, shall take heart again.

(From Longfellow's 'Psalm of Life')

Robert, I'm afraid I don't trust poets when in the context of the greatness of the Great Composers. One group forces us to look, the other invites us to look inward; our lasting impressions will always be with this second group.

Heavy, heavy.....

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by PDG:
Regarding Beethoven, I would say that no other creative artist in history has so perfectly wedded his instinctive talent with his feeble human failings, and yet through an unbreakable spirit, has produced works which are instantly recognised as eternal masterpieces, even by his peers.

But of course, we are probably just scratching the surface. I love Addorno's comment on the opening horses' trot of the Les Adieux sonata: "It underscores even more hope than the Four Gospels".

Excellent way to put that! I will have to quote you on that.

[18-ceo]

Originally posted by Euan Mackinnon:
Hi
I'm new here and would like to ask the following two-part question:

1. How would you define Genius? (If you prefer to quote your favourite definition of 'Genius', please give the reference - thank you).

2. Given your definition, is Beethoven a genius? And what about Mozart, (JS) Bach, Schubert? Other major composers?

Thanks

Euan

What is Genius? Well when your talking about this quality which only comes along every(????)such years, your talking about a universal mind. Now what would be the purpose of having universal knowledge if your not sharing it with mankind? If your goal is not to uplift every individual to the level of your universal quality? That's what Beethoven, Bach,and Mozart understood. It's not just play good music, but it's a political expression! Every Human on this planet has the same opportunity to discover princples of the universal, because we are all in the image of the Creator! It's a political fight because there are people in the world who say, " No", we're not, we come from animals. No animal can discover universal princples, no animal can increase his population to more than 2 million, we have 6 billion! After the American Revolution, Europe was in a struggle to adopted the same Republic as America, and that's what was on the mind of these Great Statesman like Mozart,and Beethoven, Fredick Schiller!

[Rod]

Originally posted by 18-ceo:
.... After the American Revolution, Europe was in a struggle to adopted the same Republic as America, and that's what was on the mind of these Great Statesman like Mozart,and Beethoven, Fredick Schiller!

True, we didn't want to pay our tea tax here in Europe either, but Beethoven was a coffee man so I don't know if he was so bothered about it.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin