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    #31
    Agnes (like myself) would not like and does not want any 'pin being stuck in to her' or her opinions. I certainly wouldn't wish this. As far as Mozart and the Masons are concerned, the simple fact is that they, as an organisation, have often been and still are a convenient scapegoat whenever Rome and its church/state hybrid is considered in any real detail within Mozart studies.

    That the Habsburgs (rather than Rome) banned Freemasons in Mozart's Vienna during his last years is indisputable. But the Habsburgs were Emperors of the Holy Roman Empire and were acting as empirically to ban the Freemasons. The Holy Roman Empire was in serious danger of collapse (due not to Freemasonry but a thousand absurdities and injustices within the Holy Roman Empire itself) so one of the ways the Habsburgs could survive was to belately allow the illusion of 'reform' to operate within the Austrian/Hungarian empire. Such 'reform' (many aspects of which were quickly reversed almost as soon as the deathof Joseph 2nd) were more cosmetic than real. The banning of Freemasons speaks volumes.

    It was the offical/Habsburg version of events that Freemasons were fermenting revolution. In fact the French Revolution (and others such as the short lived Brabant revolution in Belgium) were caused not by Freemasons but 'reforming' agents of Rome. France had years before booted out the Jesuits. This had created a vacuum that could easily have led to the rise of a modern secular and democratic French republic. They (the Jesuits) desparately wanted their power and status within France restored before this was realised. They were quite prepared to do almost anything to get it. And they finally succeeded - at the Congress of Vienna.

    It was the Habsburgs who allowed the revolutionary opera 'Le Nozze di Figaro' to be premiered, in Vienna, in 1786. And the the same 'reformist' Habsburgs allowed Figaro to be revived in Vienna years later ? This is plain evidence that even within Vienna the establishment were well aware that something had to be done to rescue their creaking marriage of church and state from almost certain collapse and extinction.

    Can European history be appreciated outside out the dogmatic interpretations foisted on us by modern apologists for Catholicism ? Freemasons were no threat to anyone despite often being infilrated and used by pro-Catholic interests to conceal their notorious intolerance.

    Mozart lived, worked and died within the social/religious context of the late Holy Roman Empire. This fact needs to be emphasised, repeated and appreciated if the mountain of myths that underpin Mozart's grotesque status are ever to be refuted. This revisionist process (motivated simply by a love of truth in dealing with Mozart fairly) can only be achieved when its agreed that he, Mozart, was a talented man exploited by Rome for Rome's benefit at virtually every stage of his short life - a man still being exploited today despite being dead for over 200 years.

    Underneath the rubble of contradictions and paradoxes is a man from Salzburg of considerable musical talent who just happened to be a Freemason in his last decade of life. Mozart also just happened to have been born to a religiously fervent father. Both things have tended to obscure him, the real person, from our appreciation.



    [This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 06-27-2006).]

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      #32
      Robert,
      That's just what I was saying. Only not in so may words...

      Regards,
      Gurn
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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        #33

        Dear Gurn,

        You are so economical with your words that they deserve to be set to music ! And I so long winded somebody might say, 'Robert, that's great - it's just what I was saying - but what exactly was it you were trying to say' ?? Ha !

        (But...'let us not to the marriage of true minds admit impediments')

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          #34
          Dear Robert,

          I will no comment on your posting on
          Freemasonry and the state of the Empire.
          I would like to see you to be less bent on
          blaming the Catholic Church for all the ills
          of European politics. It is too one-sided.
          Particularly as Joseph II robbed the
          Catholic Church in Austria of most of its power.

          Besides, in my view, all religions carry
          their own burden of mischief and killings.
          No religion is exempt from troublemaking.
          Take into consideration the missionaries of the past and today's Islamic terrorists.

          However, Russia, in more that half century, did not succeed in abolishing religious belief, so we must learn to live with religions, be their Catholic, Protestant or any other creed.

          Regards,
          Agnes.


          Comment


            #35
            Dear Agnes,

            Live with and tolerate, yes.

            Gloss over their culpability in historic events, no.

            We can scarcely apreciate today the immense power wielded by The Church for centuries. Joseph may well have stripped away some holdings by closing monasteries, but he hardly dented the true power of the Church, which was the ability to bend political events to their will. They were far more powerful then than radical Islam is today. Let's hope that doesn't change...

            Cheers,
            Gurn
            Regards,
            Gurn
            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
            That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

            Comment


              #36
              Hmm, this is a Beethoven forum. With regard to religion in my view Elizabeth I had it right by leaving it to people's own conscience. I myself am not Catholic, but this is not the place to rake over past misdemeanours - instead of concentrating on the negative aspects (a very easy thing to do), how about the positive contributions made to culture by the church? The frescoes of Giotto, the music of Palestrina, the architecture of Bruneleschi for starters.



              ------------------
              'Man know thyself'
              'Man know thyself'

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                #37

                Dear Peter,

                I wholeheartedly agree we must admire the great frescoes of Giotto, the music of Palestrina, the architecture of Bruneleschi, the painting of the Sistine Chapel ceiling, the works of Galileo and a galaxy of other great achievements in the arts and sciences by men who were Catholic. (They could hardly have been otherwise, after all). But to credit such works to the church of Rome or to describe them as 'works of the Catholic Church' is surely to miss the point - that the revival of Greek and Roman models which was 'The Renaissance' (lit. - the 'rebirth' of pagan philosophy, pagan intolerance, barbarism, and which took place within a social context of virtual serfdom) were the real contexts in which those achievements were made. These creative people literally slaved for the church. It was not the church who slaved for them.

                This is the very church which, in point of fact, by its money, status, power and control of society as a whole, stood solidly against the very freedoms they and others believed in.

                To me, these great works should not be described as achievements by the church but as achievements by gifted individuals who, living and dying under the dominance of Rome (in matters of religion as well as in their day to day struggle for existence) had Rome's will and Rome's displeasure as their daily bread.

                To serve God according to individual conscience, rather than to serve any institution is surely the true context within which true art is created. Otherwise we confuse churchianity with Christianity.

                The musical art of a Beethoven was/is a secular triumph of those individual freedoms so long suppressed and outlawed under the illegitimate marriage of state and church that had existed and ruled for a millenium in Europe. Beethoven is therefore in personal view a hundred times more relevant to the history of music than Palestrina. Talent is not enough. One must also express that talent within the context of the age in which we live. Not merely that of the fashion of our age.

                If a church is tolerant it is worthy of praise. If not, I cannot help but be amongst its critics. If Rome is to take credit for these artists it must also just as honestly be loudly repentant of its disgusting and continuing record of intolerance.

                The church is no more the context of history. It is only a primary school. Nothing more. Nothing less.



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                  #38

                  Which 'Islamic terrorists' are you speaking of Agnes. Those invented and daily reinvented by CNN perhaps ? Or those invented by the 'Sun' newspaper in London ?

                  The real terrorists of our time are those who claim to be at war against the very terrorism they created. It is they who wage this war with lies followed by more lies. They who illegally bomb, embargo, occupy, kill with chemically banned weapons and maim innocent men women and children with their lies of 'weapons of mass destruction' - whose barbarism is till now Guantanamo Bay, and who cannot or will not accept that the church has been and still is a monster posturing as the Christian faith. If we are ever to judge history fairly, let's call truth truth and lies lies. The church is not Christ. It is rightly condemned (even by non-Christians) for its flaunting of every precious thing in the name of Christ. it's a record of astounding cruelty and intolerance that simply continues till this day.

                  There must come a time when the church is as irrelevant to Christianity as it is to most ordinary secular people. A time must come too when art is valued more highly than power or might, prestige, tradition and the corrupt whims of politicians and theologians with hidden agendas. I personally cannot bear the stink of church history. Nor do eagles eat the food of chickens. Daylight, oxygen, goodwill, true tolerance. This is surely the context of music, art and creative thought in all its forms.

                  Regards


                  Comment


                    #39
                    Originally posted by robert newman:

                    Which 'Islamic terrorists' are you speaking of Agnes. Those invented and daily reinvented by CNN perhaps ? Or those invented by the 'Sun' newspaper in London ?

                    The real terrorists of our time are those who claim to be at war against the very terrorism they created. It is they who wage this war with lies followed by more lies. They who illegally bomb, embargo, occupy, kill with chemically banned weapons and maim innocent men women and children with their lies of 'weapons of mass destruction' - whose barbarism is till now Guantanamo Bay, and who cannot or will not accept that the church has been and still is a monster posturing as the Christian faith. If we are ever to judge history fairly, let's call truth truth and lies lies. The church is not Christ. It is rightly condemned (even by non-Christians) for its flaunting of every precious thing in the name of Christ. it's a record of astounding cruelty and intolerance that simply continues till this day.

                    There must come a time when the church is as irrelevant to Christianity as it is to most ordinary secular people. A time must come too when art is valued more highly than power or might, prestige, tradition and the corrupt whims of politicians and theologians with hidden agendas. I personally cannot bear the stink of church history. Nor do eagles eat the food of chickens. Daylight, oxygen, goodwill, true tolerance. This is surely the context of music, art and creative thought in all its forms.

                    Regards

                    Robert, this is a Beethoven forum and not the place to debate religion - I am indeed trying to be tolerant!

                    ------------------
                    'Man know thyself'
                    'Man know thyself'

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Originally posted by Peter:
                      Robert, this is a Beethoven forum and not the place to debate religion - I am indeed trying to be tolerant!

                      Well said, sir, for indeed, tolerance should be the basis of any religion.....

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Originally posted by PDG:

                        Well said, sir, for indeed, tolerance should be the basis of any religion.....

                        Ha ha I don't think that was Peter's point! You're off topic too. However whilst I'm here I suggest it is the non-religious who have the great burden of tollerating the religious.



                        ------------------
                        "If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
                        http://classicalmusicmayhem.freeforums.org

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