Mozart and The Masons

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Agnes Selby:

Originally posted by Hofrat:
Dear Agnes;

Thanks for reminding me that I have Paul Nettl's *The Beethoven Encyclopedia*. I looked up the entry on "Freemasonry" and I was surprised to learn that it is not certain whether or not Beethoven was a mason. Beethoven writes to Wegeler in May 1810: "I was told that you are singing a song of mine in your Masonic lodge." Note that Beethoven wrote "your Masonic lodge" not "our Masonic lodge." It seems that Beethoven is excluding himself, but that is my take on the matter. As for the songs, Wegeler took Beethoven's music and used Masonic texts. The songs used: "Opferlied" and "Wer ist ein freier Mann."


Hofrat

---------

Dear Hofrat,
I was suprised to read that Beethoven
belonged to the Masonic Order. I have not come across this in my readings on Beethoven. Also, he came to Vienna at a time
when the Masonic order was very much under suspicion and most Lodges had been dissolved.

Thank you for the information about Wegeler.

Regards,
Agnes.

Dear Agnes;

I want to reiterate. It is not clear whether Beethoven was a Free Mason or not. Neefe, his teacher in Bonn, was a very active member in a Masonic lodge. Thayer, according to Nettl, takes it for granted that Beethoven was a Mason.

It could be that Beethoven was guilty by inference. Schindler writes of his first meeting with Beethoven. Beethoven shook Schindler's hand in a strange manner that led Schindler to believe that it might be a secret handshake. Also, Beethoven occasionally called Schindler "Samotracier" that alludes to a mystic brotherhood. Again, this is inference. Nothing cut and dry here.

It is my understanding that Free Masons were very often under suspicion in Beethoven's time, and lodges often burned their membership lists when they felt that the police were going to arrest members. Without membership lists, it is difficult to determine who was a member and when.

The Austrian government severely limited Free Masonry in Beethoven's time. I believe that there was only one lodge allowed to operate in Vienna from 1790.


Hofrat

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by PDG:
I'd guess that Mozart certainly knew about it but, in desperation of social standing, chose to ignore it.

Well, that is 2 statements that you have made that I wonder about your foundation for.

1 > Beethoven was a Mason - Who says? Where is your documentation for this? Please share.

2 > Certainly Mozart knew about it. So did all the nobles right up to the Emperor himself (who tolerated and took a keen interrest in them, even though he didn't join. His father did, and his brother...) Mozart was certainly not "desperate for social standing", and if he had been, he wouldn't have been a Mason, since by the time HE joined they were a suspect organization. He was a Mason because he admired and subscribed to their ideals of universal brotherhood. Also, he hated the Church (not god, you see the difference, I'm sure) and an edict from the Pope or any other member of the Church hierarchy was meaningless to him.

Cheers,
Gurn

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by PDG:

Originally posted by jman:
I disagree with this. Even though Mozart may have been the most devout Catholic, I do believe that he was devoted to the enlightenment of mankind through wisdom and spirit. His devotion to this subject is very evident in The Magic Flute as are the ties to the Freemasons. I don't believe Mozart was as member simply for social standing, it was because he believed in their values.

Comments?

Jeff.

Well, I did say it was a guess. He may well have believed in their values but here also was a man who through his weakness for gambling struggled to put food on the family table. He was after all a tortured genius, much lacking in social graces, whose apparent reverance for all things holy was probably a convenient mask for his own ingratiating aspirations. Forgive me if offended, but as an example of what I mean, just look at his disrespectful treatment of his mother and the vulgar letters sent to his own female cousin. A GOOD Catholic?

As anyone here will tell you, I am not a particularly aggressive person, but I must say, you need to read more. I suggest that nearly every statement made in teh quotes post is unsubstantiated speculation, and that you have totally bought in to the "mozart Myth" without ever reading any work of modern scholarship which puts the lie to all those things, and more. May I suggest the following book, should be in your library:

"The Mozart Myths: A Critical Reassessment" by William Stafford.

I really hate to see you speak Mozart's piece for him...

Cheers,
Gurn

[robert newman]

Dear Gurn.

I'd never rubbish any person who advises another person to read a book - as you've just done. But I must take issue where you think anyone would profit greatly by reading -

"The Mozart Myths: A Critical Reassessment" by William Stafford.

Firstly, Stafford's approach to Mozart myths is bizzare. Without once admitting that the iconic status of Mozart has been almost entirely built on and sustained till now by myths Stafford is nevertheless credited with demolishing Mozartean myths. And yet (at the same time) he performs this sleight of hand while preserving (in the eyes of the faithful) the integrity of received wisdom on Mozart, his accepted life and career ! Such an achievement is proved by the applause with which Mr Staffor's book has been received. This is bizzare. Has Stafford challenged, for example, the myth of the boy Mozart writing 25 symphonies unaided by anyone ? No - he claims only to debunk things that need debunking. Has he challenged the myth that Mozart wrote K626 ? No. One could go on and on about myths of substance that Stafford has simply chosen not to examine. Small wonder his book is so widely recommmended despite it failing to debunk, in fact, any issue of substance on Mozart issues. Mozart has survived intact. This is amazing !

The basic problem is that myths are what we are trained to swallow virtually without chewing whenever we read modern textbooks/biographies etc. about Mozart. Stafford assures us, for example, that Mozart was certainly not poisoned. Ignoring strong contemporary evidence to the contrary (which has more persistency and consistency than any other view) he is praised for debunking the poisoning 'myth' and virtually everything mythological about Mozart. Sadly, he does not deal with dozens of myths on which the entire structure of Mozart studies was really raised and is still based. It's tepid stuff.

Let Stafford deal fairly with some of the myths that underpin modern books on Mozart and he would be recommended by me also. He does not tackle any of substance and when he tries he inevitably falls on his face. That is why his book is weak and why he and his strange book are nevertheless applauded by the 'Mozart establishment'.

If not for myths would we ever have had the Mozart we know today ? No. We would not. Yet Stafford has miraculously produced a work as anodine to modern Mozart 'expertise' as the US government official report on 9/11, or those reports made by complaints authorities which were written by policemen to deal with failures of police colleagues. I suppose one must give some credit for the sheer audacity of such a work ever appearing. But I could list 20 myths Mr Stafford has not touched on and which were certainly responsible for the rise of Mozart's posthumous reputation. Those don't count, of course. (Must list them for Mr Stafford's second edition).







[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 06-24-2006).]

[robert newman]

Dear Agnes,

Only 24 hours ago Australian soccer players qualified for the last 16 of the World Cup. This has revolutionised the game in Ozz ! I know of no violence having followed their courageous performance. (Ha !)

Robert

[Agnes Selby]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Dear Agnes,

Only 24 hours ago Australian soccer players qualified for the last 16 of the World Cup. This has revolutionised the game in Ozz ! I know of no violence having followed their courageous performance. (Ha !)
----------------

Dear Robert, Yes we are in the next round
but I do not think we will beat the Italians. The game is not all that popular in Oz as you know, we are in for the "game they play in heaven" - rugby. I have often said that if rugby is played in heaven I would rather go to hell.

However, the reply is yes. More kids are now interested in playing soccer and it is no longer considered a "girlie" game.

Regards,
Agnes.


Robert

[Gurn Blanston]

Dear Robert,
No, Stafford didn't deal with every possible myth, not by a long shot. By far the most of his interest was in the personal and social areas, and these are precisely what the original poster was talking about.

Also, consider that he didn't find the "production of music" myth, which is so near and dear to your heart, to have enough substance for him to bother with. Not being a Mozart scholar myself, I can't really say. But I have read the biographies, and over the centuries they have followed each other like sheep when it comes to those personal things. At the least, they needed examination, and the concept that most of them were the bunk is well and fairly stated.

On another topic, you posted earlier on whether the Masons could be really credited with starting the French Revolution, and that it was actually the Catholic Church that started it. I would just point out that the real issue here in not whether the Masons were responsible (highly unlikely), but whether the Habsburgs BELIEVED that they were responsible. This is far more to the point. You may be entirely correct that it was the Catholics, I really don't know, but the Masons were suppressed after the death of Marie Antoinette (Joseph's sister, IIRC) for the expressed purpose of preventing another French Revolution in the Austrian Empire. Now if there is some subtext to your post of which I am unaware, such as sticking a needle into Agnes, then I aplogize for sticking my nose in...

Cheers,
Gurn

[PDG]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Well, that is 2 statements that you have made that I wonder about your foundation for.

1 > Beethoven was a Mason - Who says? Where is your documentation for this? Please share.

2 > Certainly Mozart knew about it. So did all the nobles right up to the Emperor himself (who tolerated and took a keen interrest in them, even though he didn't join. His father did, and his brother...) Mozart was certainly not "desperate for social standing", and if he had been, he wouldn't have been a Mason, since by the time HE joined they were a suspect organization. He was a Mason because he admired and subscribed to their ideals of universal brotherhood. Also, he hated the Church (not god, you see the difference, I'm sure) and an edict from the Pope or any other member of the Church hierarchy was meaningless to him.

Cheers,
Gurn

Well, young Gurn, I cannot read the big, thick books as they give me a headache. No one knows everything, and anyway, I prefer The Beano . However, I shall quote from the Compactotheque book(which accompanied Philips' much-lauded 180-CD Complete Mozart Edition in 2000); Original French text: Jacques Lory; English translation: Robert Jordan:

"It may seem surprising that Mozart was a Freemason, considering that he continued to subscribe to the Catholic faith, apparently quite sincerely, and wrote some of the best known of all church music.
There is no need to doubt Mozart's faith, though it can sometimes seem naive, as when he recited his rosary to ask for his new symphony to succeed with the audience in Paris. The fact was that at the time there was no basic conflict between Catholic belief and Masonic ideals...........

In 1784 Mozart joined the "Benevolence" lodge in Vienna. For Mozart it was an indication of his rise in the social scale that he had been accepted into a society in which many of the members were prominent representatives of the Enlightened aristocracy of the day...........

The sense of solidarity which supported him (as for instance in the financial help given by the Mason Puchberg), and which would have been even more forthcoming if his "brothers" had known of his difficulties, inspired some of the most genuinely successful of his late works............."

[PDG]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:

As anyone here will tell you, I am not a particularly aggressive person, but I must say, you need to read more.

As I said, I read The Beano. You should try it.......Dennis The Menace is my favourite.

I suggest that nearly every statement made in teh quotes post is unsubstantiated speculation, and that you have totally bought in to the "mozart Myth" without ever reading any work of modern scholarship which puts the lie to all those things, and more.

Your suggestion has been duly noted and discarded. The only thing I've "bought into" is my annual subscription to The Beano. Have you read it?

I really hate to see you speak Mozart's piece for him...

Cheers,
Gurn

I speak for no one but myself (and Dennis The Menace)...........Have you read The Dandy? It's very similar The Beano........

[PDG]

Originally posted by Agnes Selby:

I see absolutely no evidence that Mozart treated his mother without respect.

Hello Agnes. Okay, he didn't disrespect her as much as Leopold who "ordered" her to accompany Wolfgang to Paris when she was clearly not well enough to travel and didn't speak a word of French (her German wasn't even that good). She could exercise no parental control over the free-spirited Mozart jnr during the trip; he even composed away from their inadequate lodgings (though I know there are reasons for this). He knew she was desperately lonely yet chose, instead of keeping her much-needed company, to chase loose skirts around the French capital. Though she was dying, Wolfgang continued to work on his Paris symphony.

His letters to his cousin were written in the spirit of joking. Jokes change with time. You will note that similar joking references which we now find offensive were used by Mozart's mother in her letters to her husband, Leopold Mozart.

Regards,
Agnes Selby.

I've not read the letters from mother to father but Wolfgang's letters to his cousin were crude in the extreme. I'm sure you know the translations, but as to what should be allowed as acceptable humour by a "good Catholic" towards his female cousin was surely stretched beyond the limit in this case?! If we can't agree, fair enough; in which case I'll post the translations here.........but I'd rather not!

Regards, Peter (PDG)

[Cetto von Cronstorff]

Originally posted by PDG:
Her German wasn't even that good

Says who? Do you speak German? Her spelling was bad, but her German was good good enough to marry a German and get along in Salzburg

[Agnes Selby]

Originally posted by PDG:
I've not read the letters from mother to father but Wolfgang's letters to his cousin were crude in the extreme. I'm sure you know the translations, but as to what should be allowed as acceptable humour by a "good Catholic" towards his female cousin was surely stretched beyond the limit in this case?! If we can't agree, fair enough; in which case I'll post the translations here.........but I'd rather not!

Regards, Peter (PDG)

-------------

Dear Peter,

I realize that the letters to Basle are crude. They are also childish and inspired by Mozart's inexperience with girls such is his cousin. Do not forget that Basle was much more "wordly" (for a lack of a better word). At an early age she had an illegitimate child with the local postmaster. To Mozart, she seemed a very experienced lady. I do not think that Mozart was ever far from his father's eye. This journey was his first taste of freedom. He did not know how to use this freedom as far as women were concerned.

However, good Catholic or not, I do not think crude language has anything to do with
religious belief. In any case, Mozart believed in God but he abhored priests.
As you well know, confession on a Sunday
could obliterate all the sins committed during the week.

As for Mozart's mother, what language did she speak? After all German was her mother tongue. Salzburgian dialect would have been the German she spoke.

As for German grammar, at the time everyone wrote as they spoke. Regulated grammar did not arrive until the 19th century. However, Dr. Lorenz can correct me on this if he cares to do so.

The Mother's letters to the father are published in Emily Anderson's "Letters of Mozart and his Family". I think the crudest letter from Mother to Father was written in Paris. I will not quote it here.

However, jokes differ from generation to generation. Even the jokes of the 1950s
fall flat and no longer seem funny. Imagine then a time when "toilet" jokes provided
all the amusement to get one through the day. Toilet jokes still persist in Eastern European countries which were once part of the Austro/Hungarian empire.

However, the most "appetising" jokes were overheard by my husband and I while eating
in a restaurant in Salzburg. The two waiters
standing in the corner exchanged "jokes"
which would have had anyone walk away from a laden table had the food not been so expensive.

Regards,
Agnes.

[Gurn Blanston]

Peter,
"Young Gurn". That's amusing, no one has called me that in 60 years or so. It takes me back...

In any case, you should note that having one source for your information, or 2, counting Beano, has you relying totally on one person's opinions. It is one thing to print facts (Mozart said the Rosary in Paris... or "Mozart joined the Freemasons") and quite another to draw inferences from them and publish them as fact. Which is what your correspondent (shall we call him Dennis? He IS quite a Menace) has done. In any case, you would find Staffords book scarcely larger than the "booklet" from the CME.

Cheers,
Gurn

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Cetto von Cronstorff:
Says who? Do you speak German? Her spelling was bad, but her German was good, good enough to marry a German and get along in Salzburg

Dear Cetto;

Are you stating that good German was a prerequisite for marriage in Salzburg at the time that Leopold Mozart wedded?


Hofrat

[Cetto von Cronstorff]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
Are you stating that good German was a prerequisite for marriage in Salzburg at the time that Leopold Mozart wedded?

No, that's beside the point. I just want some evidence for the claim that a woman, whose native langage was German, 'did not speak this language very well'.