The (new?) Bach thread - begun in the eBay one.

[Rutradelusasa]

Originally posted by Rod:
This is not redundant discussion, saying nothing but 'I love this, I love that' is redundant discussion, it is not even discussion. Upon a most wecome prompt I explained my position which is more than you usually get here. Without friction there is no birth, we just sit around like a bunch of mindless morons regurgitating the same crap like you get in the music academies. Do not try to stifle me Mr Rutradelusasa unless you have something more interesting to entertain us, this place has become way too mundane as it is and the moderators are conspicuous by their absence these days. I invite you to contradict the points I make above, starting with my using Beethoven as the quality standard, then my points about Bach.

What's the point of me contradicting them? You won't accept them on your subjective opinions.
If I must say, I say not even Beethoven could have written the beggining of the St. Matthew's Passion and not even Bach could have written the Missa Solemnis.
Each time I return to Händel I find the same pleasant tunes in new outfits across his ouvre. To be honest, after the cd has stopped or the applause has died, I carry much less of Händel with me than I do with Bach.
The two composers able to make me marvel at something, that have ever gotten a "wow" coming out of my mouth were Beethoven and Bach.
They are the standarts I set for everything else. I measure Händel by Bach. I measure Brahms by Beethoven. I measure Music by them. They are Music to me, the others are composers.
I have NEVER found, and you will never be able to show me, another piece of music with the cumulative effect of the "et in terra pax" from the B minor mass. I searched all the Händel I could handle till I couldn't listen anymore to him. I got myself a little cleansing-period with some toccatas from Bach.
You want dramatic? Have you really gotten to the "Sind Blitzer, sind Donner im Wolke verschwunden" chorus in the St. Matthew Passion?
Or are you going to tell me that all those recitativs between "I stand here and sing a lot" arias in Händel's operas are dramatic? Not even big Händel champions stand to not cut some of that in order to have SOME action in certain operas. Want action? Get inside a trash can and roll yourself down the hill.

Now, that's my opinion. Do you want to bet that after the many posts this topic might have (and don't post the "Beethoven thought Händel was the greatest" mumbo-jumbo bs because my monitor won't survive the punch) and all the posts and topics this forum has had you won't change your mind?

There's 50 bucks in it.

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"Wer ein holdes weib errugen..."

[Nightklavier]

I could spend some time after analyzing your remarks to give my input, but in my experience of classical music, I never bother with who's better than who. Bach vs Handel, Beethoven vs Mozart, Chopin vs Liszt, Wagner vs Brahms, or whatever... it has no credence to me. Bach and Handel are masters of music. Beethoven and Mozart are masters of music. Chopin and Liszt are masters of music. Wagner and Brahms are masters of music. They are all good (in my opinion) and with all the music out there to be discovered and enjoyed by each of them, why bother with pedantic scrutinies of whether or not one's composition is more "genius" than the other? This kind of thing was never fruitful, but it's always entertaining. In the 19th century it was like this: Berlioz champions Liszt, Fetis champions Thalberg: "Who will win in this pianistic deathmatch?" And Schumann champions Brahms, Liszt champions Wagner: "Who will win, the music of the future or the old and absolute way?" Who can say? There was never any declared victors and this applies to Handel and Bach too.

Nevertheless, I'm open minded; I'm just a classical music novice compared to most of you guys here, so despite my already-formed view that nothing can come from these kinds of debates, I would still be interested in reading other's opinions on the subject. I mean, I don't want to disrupt anything with my injection here, but perhaps you could provide the background story to this? Where did that Rod quote come from and what was it regarding? I'm guessing some kind of Handel vs Bach thing, but I just want to be sure.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Rutradelusasa:

What's the point of me contradicting them? You won't accept them on your subjective opinions...

[/B][/QUOTE]

It appears you do not accept my subjective opinions either. I put it to you again - is Beethoven the benchmark or is he not? I'm not sure what Handel you have been listening to, I can only assume it has been from the old-school era when everything Handel was played four-square at one quater tempo, a bit like what they did with Beethoven. But I don't really believe you have heard that much.

I'm sorry but the St. Matthew Passion is not a supreme masterwork like the Missa Solemnis or Messiah (and H wrote a lot of other pieces at least as good as this if not better), and Beethoven stole Bach's thunder with the fuge whereas while virtually on his deathbed Beethoven stated he still had things to learn from Handel! And if you are looking for epic choruses you obviously have not heard Handel's Solomon or Isreal in Egypt. Bach never wrote anything like this - Bach's drama is at best subtle and certainly small scale compared to B and H.

I suggest Handel is supreme with the use of the voice, whereas Bach often sounds like he composes instrumental music then bolts the voices on after. This is very apparent, and sometimes there is an awkward conflict between voice and instrument (especially the lead oboe). Still, if you just take away the voices you are left with an ready composed orchestral suite as backup. Bach's recitatives are simply horrific.

It's a pity you have not found it fit to join my Handel site, whereby I have been posting dozens of hits for years (and the discussion is more relevant there). This could not be done with Bach, how many chorales and fugues can people suffer? And there are more hits in Messiah alone than Bach's whole choral output! If you join now you will catch the last installation from my survey of his Op6 concertos, the ultimate set of Baroque concertos to my mind (the lack of invention in the Brandenburg concertos is all too evident when you hear the two sets side by side).

The cult of Bach is indeed a cult because his supreme position with the establishment is not justified by his output of endless cantatas and other trifles. This is my principle grievance, the establishment's elevated position on Bach, I have nothing against Bach in particular. The BBC complete Bach series only served to highlight Bach's severely restricted musical invention and vision, whereas Beethoven and Handel are true musical men of the world.

For the record Handel's operas are extremely dramatic if you see a live production, death, deception, magic and monsters galore. I have recordings of over 25 of them and each one is packed with great music. Handel IS opera as far as I am concerned (allowing for Fidelio which is a supreme and unique production in itself). Can you only imagine what a Bach opera would have sounded like?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-02-2006).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Nightklavier:
I don't want to disrupt anything with my injection here, but perhaps you could provide the background story to this? Where did that Rod quote come from and what was it regarding? I'm guessing some kind of Handel vs Bach thing, but I just want to be sure.

Look below for the origin of the 'Rod quote'. Perhaps the 'Rod Quote' will become a part of musical folk-law, quoted by students and professors in 100 years!?
http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002417.html


What amuses me is that people are not really against me taking sides, it is the side I am taking that irriates them. If I had nothing but praise for Bach and had slated Handel no eyebrows would have been raised here at all.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-02-2006).]

[robert newman]

Hello Rod,

I knew you were on good form when you wrote -

'If I had nothing but praise for Bach and had slated Handel no eyebrows would have been raised here at all'.

That's assertiveness for you, for sure !

Time and time again it seems discussions on Handel/Bach/Beethoven etc. are doomed to failure because we do not agree (or cannot seem to first agree) on our terms of reference. If, as you say, Bach was hopeless in his recitatives I must admit to being in a parallel musical universe to your own, since, in my view, some of the greatest recitatives ever written are by him. The news that he (Bach) could not write an opera equal to those of Handel is similarly difficult for me to accept. The truth as I see it is that Bach was well aware of the superficalities and short-lived conventions of the stage. He did not experience stage works going in to decline in the way that Handel certainly did. Nor did Bach fool himself that the world really cared for him or his music. In fact, Bach's 'impossible' output seems to have been created with the least applause or encouragement of all the great composers. That Bach knew the latest compositions and musical styles is beyond dispute. That he (twice) set out to meet Handel is also a matter of record. So here with Bach (I suggest) is a talent quite different from that of Handel. He Bach seems to have been writing what he did for both posterity just as for his own time - a feature which I suggest we find again in many works of the mature Beethoven.

I won't submit a list of the phenomenal recitatives by J.S. Bach (though it would give me a lot of pleasure to try making one). Somehow, the music of Bach is at one and the same time music of the soil and of the cosmos. That Handel, from time to time, was able to do the same, I do not deny.

On these issues one could act like those German theologians of the 19th century who, studying the Old and New Testaments of the bible, decided all miraculous elements were not miraculous at all and could be rationally explained. Such views will always have their supporters. I think the same must be said of music. That Handel lived and did what he did is, to me, miraculous. That Bach lived and did what he did is, to me, also miraculous. But that Handel wrote for the stage and Bach did not seems the one crucial clue as to what really divides these two men. I personally have no doubt that if Bach was ever to imagine the influence his music has on the world he would have been quite unable to write as he did. Handel had no such worries. He moved with ease in the world.

But the closer we get to the source of musical greatness the clearer it seems to me that Bach has been there before. As a pioneer. His footprints survive to show he 'took off his shoes' and survived the experience. The rest is musical history.

I think we must (like Bach) welcome the chance to hear all music, even if it does little for us. There is something great in taking such an attitude. The rest is intuition. I honestly believe that Bach's music is not intimidating. It is the greatest body of freedom loving music that any musical person can ever know. I can and must credit him with being foundational to all that came after him. I cannot say the same of any other musician.

So I am no slave to Bach. He represents, perhaps,truths about music as it is currently known. I have a reverence for him. It would be nice if you were able to relax in the cool shade that he provides, whatever you think of Handel, or even Beethoven.

Regards

[Rod]

I was expecting your contribution somewhere along the line Robert.

I was not only being assertive, it is the simple truth of the matter whatever the view point.

And it seems those who differ with me on Handel for the most part differ with me on Beethoven too and that suits me fine.

As always I read your notes with interest, as I did all the others, but at the end of the day I always fall back to the music and not the history, and in this case we have sampled our respective parallel universes. I'm sorry but compared to the selection of Handel and Beethoven music I put together for you on CD you must confess the Bach offerings you emailed me were decidedly ordinary, and the same goes for the Bach pieces offered here many years ago (perhaps by Chaszz?). If such material had appeared in a Handel opus I would have thought the unscroupulous publisher had inserted some anonymous composers typically bland offerings into it as was oft the case in those days (the idea then was quantity over quality). I'm sorry but the same good ear that can tell good Beethoven from bad can easily hear the qualities Handel displays that are absent in Bach. I am fully aware of Bach's qualities, but I need a lot more than this from my music.

I reiterrate my primary assertion that Bach is too elevated by the establishment, not only above Handel but of course above Beethoven too - which proves 100% the validity of my case if nothing else does.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin



[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-02-2006).]

[Rod]

On the subject of Beethoven and Handel, I have only now realised I missed out the overture 'Consecration of the House' at the Authentic mp3 page! I have a first rate recording by the Hanover Band and can post it here direct if anyone is interested.

PS I watched Cosi fan tutte last night on TV, very boring music for the most part Robert.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-02-2006).]

[robert newman]

Hi Rod,

I love the 'Consecration of the House' (I think Joy does too if I remember rightly). Yes, I'd love to hear it please.

'Cosi Fan Tutte' is one of those very etheral sorts of operas. I must admit the same as you. It is so delicate that at times I simply can't listen to it without big breaks. It certainly rates lower on my scorecard than all the other operas attributed to him of his maturity.

Regards

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
On the subject of Beethoven and Handel, I have only now realised I missed out the overture 'Consecration of the House' at the Authentic mp3 page! I have a first rate recording by the Hanover Band and can post it here direct if anyone is interested.

PS I watched Cosi fan tutte last night on TV, very boring music for the most part Robert.

Yes I'd love to hear your Consecration! As to Cosi, needless to say I don't agree!

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Ok two requests is enough. I'll start a new chain with the overture.

Regarding Cosi, I heard this live too in Paris a few years back. I just though much of the music lacked substance or character compared to what I was expecting. A bit lightweight. I've never heard Fidelio though, my expectation requires a perfect production and one hasn't come to London during my time here (20 years or so). I only need to see it once, but productions of Fidelio are not as common as they could (or should) be!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[PDG]

I'd like to know when the last time was that the BBC showed any performance of Fidelio? Certainly I've never seen one. At Easter or at other seasonal times, it always seems deemed more appropriate to show a more commercially-accessible opera by either Mozart or Puccini, etc.