Hess 314--The Cressner Cantata

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Rod:
The wording from my source is not clear, but it implies that this was part of a complete arrangement of the symphony, published by Breitkopf and Hartel.

Rod;

No, this incomplete transcription was published in facsimile by Hess as a frontispiece of the SBG, vol. VIII, 1964. SBG stands for *Supplemente zur Beethoven Gesamtausgabe* which was published by Breitkopf & Hartel.

As I said before, only now has Hess 96 been published in the New Hess Catalog.


Hofrat

[Rod]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
Rod;

No, this incomplete transcription was published in facsimile by Hess as a frontispiece of the SBG, vol. VIII, 1964. SBG stands for *Supplemente zur Beethoven Gesamtausgabe* which was published by Breitkopf & Hartel.

As I said before, only now has Hess 96 been published in the New Hess Catalog.


Hofrat

I see, that makes sense, the language used in the CD notes of the recording is ambiguous. For the record the CD also includes a premiere of a contemporary piano arrangement of Creatures of Prometheus as corrected by Beethoven but not his. Of course the CD cover advertises the work as Beethoven's - the type of lie from the recording industry that happens on many an occasion.

But I am wondering what motivated Beethoven to write the 7th arrangement if it is not an aborted attempt at a full effort. Maybe it was for someone else to make use of or a publisher. Beethoven's genuine arrangement of Symphony 2 for piano trio is truly fantastic and I am astonished is it not part of the repertoire or even included in recordings of the 'complete' trios.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 06-25-2006).]

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 06-25-2006).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:
On 20th August last year in the thread 'Beethoven's Early Years in Bonn' I made mention of Beethoven's grandfather being regularly paid money (a pension of a kind) through this very same George Cressner in Bonn through Kapellmeister Luchesi - this being done in that way in order to curb Beethoven's notorious drinking habits. Reference was also made there to Beethoven being at one time victim of a nasty rumour that he was an illegitimate son of the nobility - this no doubt due to this very funding to the Beethoven family. For the Beethoven family to have received such money and for it to have given rise to such a rumour does indicate (to me anyway) that the money was paid by Cressner for some reason not yet satisfactorily explained. The year in which these payments via Luchesi started is unknown.

That Beethoven's work is said by Maurer and also Thayer to have been corrected by Luchesi surely indicates that the manuscript survived at least long enough for such a remark to have been made by Mauerer. Mauerer must reasonably have seen this work - one said to have been performed in 1783 - two years after the date of its composition.

Maurer's account of this has been doubted by scholars because he could not have been speaking from personal memory, having left Bonn several months before the events he describes. No other reference to this cantata exists.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Maurer's account of this has been doubted by scholars because he could not have been speaking from personal memory, having left Bonn several months before the events he describes. No other reference to this cantata exists.

The whole idea of the 11 year old Beethoven and this 'cantata' seems dubious to me. Which is why I wanted to discuss it.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 06-25-2006).]

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Rod:

But I am wondering what motivated Beethoven to write the 7th arrangement if it is not an aborted attempt at a full effort. Maybe it was for someone else to make use of or a publisher. Beethoven's genuine arrangement of Symphony 2 for piano trio is truely fantastic and I am astonished is it not part of the repertoire or even included in recordings of the 'complete' trios.

Dear Rod;

One of the biggest problems that first rate composers like Beethoven had to face with each publication of a new work was the huge demand for arrangements of the same work. It is understandable a century before the technology of recording sound was even a wet dream. To hear Beethoven's 7th symphony meant going to a live performance of it, unless one had a reduced chamber edition of it that could be performed at the comfort of home. Here entered the arrangers, a group of unknown composers, who taylored to this need.

Now the trouble with arrangers is that some were very good, but on large, most were terrible. Beethoven would go ballistic when he saw his masterpieces not being bought while cheap and poor arrangements of them were selling like hot cakes.

As the old adage says, "if you can not beat them, join them." Beethoven was compelled to do his own arrangements, or at least correct someone else's arrangement.

Rod, I agree with your assessment of the trio arrangement of Beethoven's 2nd symphony.


Hofrat

[Rod]

Originally posted by Hofrat:

Dear Rod;

One of the biggest problems that first rate composers like Beethoven had to face with each publication of a new work was the huge demand for arrangements of the same work. It is understandable a century before the technology of recording sound was even a wet dream. To hear Beethoven's 7th symphony meant going to a live performance of it, unless one had a reduced chamber edition of it that could be performed at the comfort of home. Here entered the arrangers, a group of unknown composers, who taylored to this need.

Now the trouble with arrangers is that some were very good, but on large, most were terrible. Beethoven would go ballistic when he saw his masterpieces not being bought while cheap and poor arrangements of them were selling like hot cakes.

As the old adage says, "if you can not beat them, join them." Beethoven was compelled to do his own arrangements, or at least correct someone else's arrangement.

Rod, I agree with your assessment of the trio arrangement of Beethoven's 2nd symphony.


Hofrat

I am fully aware of the motivation to produce arrangements and the methods used, I am not a complete novice in this field Mr Hofrat. However genuine Beethoven arrangements of his own music are few and far between. I was enquiring into the background behind the production of this particular fragment, of which I'm still none the wiser.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 06-25-2006).]

[PDG]

Originally posted by Rod:
Beethoven's genuine arrangement of Symphony 2 for piano trio is truly fantastic and I am astonished is it not part of the repertoire or even included in recordings of the 'complete' trios.

Again, spot on. This is a wonderful work. Beethoven's reductions are as brilliant as his own full-scale originals. Conversely, I really cannot tolerate the Leonard Bernstein-type "fleshed-out" orchestral versions of the original chamber pieces. It feels like an intrusion duly followed by an explosion. And for what?



[This message has been edited by PDG (edited 06-25-2006).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by PDG:
Again, spot on. This is a wonderful work. Beethoven's reductions are as brilliant as his own full-scale originals. Conversely, I really cannot tolerate the Leonard Bernstein-type "fleshed-out" orchestral versions of the original chamber pieces. It feels like an intrusion duly followed by an explosion. And for what?

I can only assume that the 2nd Symphony is such an accepted and established piece in its own right that there is no room in the minds of the musical establishment for the trio.

I think a similar situation exists with the Octet Op103 and the String Quintet arrangement of it (Op4). Obviously the Octet is not such an important work relative to the Symphony, but it seems to have eclipsed B's enhanced version of it for strings, the latter being similarly invisible in the repertoire as the trio. Although one could say the original is a more spontaneous production, easier on the casual ear.

Regarding the various orchestrations of Beethoven quartets this just sums up the arrogance and stupidity that can be witnessed in even the most established musical personalities.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 06-26-2006).]

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Rod:
I think a similar situation exists with the Octet Op103 and the String Quintet arrangement of it (Op4). Obviously the Octet is not such an important work relative to the Symphony, but it seems to have eclipsed B's enhanced version of it for strings, the latter being similarly invisible in the repertoire as the trio. Although one could say the original is a more spontaneous production, easier on the casual ear.

Dear Rod;

Yes, the Octet is interesting in the fact that it was composed while Beethoven was still in Bonn and only published after his death. Yet, the string quintet version Beethoven was able to publish in 1795.

Then we have opus 104, Beethoven's own arrangement of his piano trio in C-minor (opus 1/3) for string quintet. The C-minor trio was a very popular work, with no fewer than 16 editions published in Beethoven's life time. Beethoven did the arrangement himself when he saw a very poor arrangement that was about to be published.

And there is Hess 34, Beethoven's arrangement of his piano sonata in E-major opus 14/1 for string quartet. An article in the Journal of American Musicology speculates that the quartet rendition may have been written or sketched before the piano rendition. I guess that is the musical version of the old question, "Which came first: the chicken or the egg?"

Naxos put out a CD (8.553827) of transcriptions of Carl Khym. He was a virtuoso oboist, born about the same time as Beethoven. Although Khym was a composer in his own right, he is better known as an arranger of other composers' chamber works. On this CD are Khym's arrangements for string quintet of the following works by Beethoven:
1. Piano trio in G opus 1/2.
2. Clarinet trio in Bb opus 11.
3. Sonata for piano and horn in F opus 17.


Hofrat

[Rod]

Originally posted by Hofrat:

Dear Rod;

Yes, the Octet is interesting in the fact that it was composed while Beethoven was still in Bonn and only published after his death. Yet, the string quintet version Beethoven was able to publish in 1795.

Then we have opus 104, Beethoven's own arrangement of his piano trio in C-minor (opus 1/3) for string quintet. The C-minor trio was a very popular work, with no fewer than 16 editions published in Beethoven's life time. Beethoven did the arrangement himself when he saw a very poor arrangement that was about to be published.

And there is Hess 34, Beethoven's arrangement of his piano sonata in E-major opus 14/1 for string quartet. An article in the Journal of American Musicology speculates that the quartet rendition may have been written or sketched before the piano rendition. I guess that is the musical version of the old question, "Which came first: the chicken or the egg?"

Naxos put out a CD (8.553827) of transcriptions of Carl Khym. He was a virtuoso oboist, born about the same time as Beethoven. Although Khym was a composer in his own right, he is better known as an arranger of other composers' chamber works. On this CD are Khym's arrangements for string quintet of the following works by Beethoven:
1. Piano trio in G opus 1/2.
2. Clarinet trio in Bb opus 11.
3. Sonata for piano and horn in F opus 17.


Hofrat

I know Op104 well, I have two recordings of it. However I assure you Beethoven only corrected this one, and despite this effort it is not a particularly good arrangement to my mind, like the other such non-Beethoven arrangements in his opus list.

Concerning the genuine Beethoven arrangement from Op14 I too have considered the chicken or egg theory, I recall mentioning it here years ago, because stylistically the quartet version harks to an earlier age than the 'original'.

The only good non-Beethoven arrangement I have is a string quintet version of the Kreutzer (composer anon).

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 06-26-2006).]

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Rod:

I know Op104 well, I have two recordings of it. However I assure you Beethoven only corrected this one, and despite this effort it is not a particularly good arrangement to my mind, like the other such non-Beethoven arrangements in his opus list.

Dear Rod;

According to an 1842 article, the string quintet arrangement of the C-minor piano trio was done by an amateur music lover who made a rather unskillful transcription. This was presented to Beethoven who evaluated it and went about making his own detailed rearrangement, which he published as opus 104.

Here is something interesting. Ries admitted that he himself made a large number of arrangements which he showed to Beethoven. Ries then handed the arrangments to Beethoven's brother, Carl, who sold them to various publishers.


Hofrat

[Rod]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
Dear Rod;

According to an 1842 article, the string quintet arrangement of the C-minor piano trio was done by an amateur music lover who made a rather unskillful transcription. This was presented to Beethoven who evaluated it and went about making his own detailed rearrangement, which he published as opus 104.

Here is something interesting. Ries admitted that he himself made a large number of arrangements which he showed to Beethoven. Ries then handed the arrangments to Beethoven's brother, Carl, who sold them to various publishers.


Hofrat

Concerning Op104 may I add after B made his corrections/improvements to the anonymous composer's effort he wrote on the score 'lifted from the most abject "Miserabilitat" to moderato respectability by Mr.Wellwisher 1817 August 14.' To my ears even a corrected and improved effort such as this not a Beethoven work - you can hear that within seconds. Beethoven would have done a much better job than this.

Looking back to H96, this is a most skeletal arrangement, the principal themes outlined in a most basic manner, no attempts to fill in the harmony or whatever. It covers roughly the first 3 minutes of the first movememnt. A real curiosity.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin