Hess 314--The Cressner Cantata

[Hofrat]

Dear forum members;

I must confess. I am responsible for the Cressner Cantata thread, not Robert Newman. When Agnes reminded me about Paul Nettl's book *The Beethoven Encyclopedia*, I looked up the entry on Free Masonry so that I may contribute to thread on Mozart and Masonry. Then as a lark, I checked the entry on Lucchesi. I was very surprised to find the reference to the Cressner Cantata. I wrote off-list to Robert Newman to ask him about it. He was kind enough to respond to me off-list. I did not expect him to start a thread on the subject.

However, I agree with Rod. Robert has opened a legitimate subject about a work by a very young Beethoven that was never discussed before on our forum. And in doing so, we have discovered a Lucchesi connection. And apparently, Hess and Thayer mentioned it. I do not know how much can be discussed about a work that is lost, but it is a legitimate subject for discussion.


Hofrat

[Rod]

I was going to ask what actually Hess 314 amounts to - is it just a reference to a totally lost piece? A scrap of a fragment? A page or two? etc.

If there are some 'notes on paper' surviving has any effort been made to record it? Regarding its ownership believe me I've heard young Beethoven and mature Luchesi and the difference between the two is quite quite clear, and believe me the young B wins hands down. Luchesi is at best a very ordinary composer. A recording would resolve this easily.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 06-24-2006).]

[robert newman]

I had no wish to annoy Peter in starting a thread on the subject of the Cressner cantata of 1781 and yet (it seems) I have done so. And yet here, from a quite separate angle than any yet discussed previously on this forum is fresh evidence of relevance to studies of the young Beethoven - though he was at the time but 11 years old. That must have been some commission, yes ? To me, the evidence on this from 'Groves' (5th edition, 1964) and again from the Beethoven encyclopaedia has surely justified me bringing this to the attention of readers on this forum. I am sorry this view is not shared by Peter since it happens to mention a certain Kapellmeister.

I certainly have given careful thought to having a separate Luchesi website. Far more important in my view is a fair minded atttitude on issues such as the report that Beethoven composed a cantata aged 11 for the British Ambassador to Bonn.

Let us suppress the matter and have the name of Luchesi removed from every obelisk in Egypt. Reference to him tends to lend support that he was Beethoven's first real teacher of music. And that is stretching credibility to breaking point.

Regards


Robert

[Rod]

I'm presuming now the music in question is totally lost. A pity. Speaking personally, these days I'm no longer particularly interested in who taught Beethoven exactly what, and as for who composed what, with Beethoven the music always speaks for itself (or not in this case).

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Rod:
I was going to ask what actually Hess 314 amounts to - is it just a reference to a totally lost piece? A scrap of a fragment? A page or two? etc.

If there are some 'notes on paper' surviving has any effort been made to record it? Regarding its ownership believe me I've heard young Beethoven and mature Luchesi and the difference between the two is quite quite clear, and believe me the young B wins hands down. Luchesi is at best a very ordinary composer. A recording would resolve this easily.

Rod;

The Hess catalog entry:

"314 'A Mourning Cantata for Cressener.' This work was supposedly composed about 1781 on the death of the English emissary [to the Electoral Court in Bonn], George Cressener. The same piece is mentioned in Thayer I, p. 141. Until now, no trace of the work has been found."


Hofrat

[robert newman]

On 20th August last year in the thread 'Beethoven's Early Years in Bonn' I made mention of Beethoven's grandfather being regularly paid money (a pension of a kind) through this very same George Cressner in Bonn through Kapellmeister Luchesi - this being done in that way in order to curb Beethoven's notorious drinking habits. Reference was also made there to Beethoven being at one time victim of a nasty rumour that he was an illegitimate son of the nobility - this no doubt due to this very funding to the Beethoven family. For the Beethoven family to have received such money and for it to have given rise to such a rumour does indicate (to me anyway) that the money was paid by Cressner for some reason not yet satisfactorily explained. The year in which these payments via Luchesi started is unknown.

Why a British diplomat should have been involved in paying money regularly in this way (which seems to have begun only after Luchesi's arrival in Bonn) may be a key to understanding why the young Ludwig van Beethoven is said to have written the missing funeral cantata of 1781. That Beethoven's work is said by Maurer and also Thayer to have been corrected by Luchesi surely indicates that the manuscript survived at least long enough for such a remark to have been made by Mauerer. Mauerer must reasonably have seen this work - one said to have been performed in 1783 - two years after the date of its composition.

I note too that in the Bodleian Libary at Oxford University is correspondence from/to this same Bonn diplomat, George Cressner, (the latest of these dated 1780) and which may be interesting to read.


[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 06-25-2006).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:

I had no wish to annoy Peter in starting a thread on the subject of the Cressner cantata of 1781 and yet (it seems) I have done so. And yet here, from a quite separate angle than any yet discussed previously on this forum is fresh evidence of relevance to studies of the young Beethoven - though he was at the time but 11 years old. That must have been some commission, yes ? To me, the evidence on this from 'Groves' (5th edition, 1964) and again from the Beethoven encyclopaedia has surely justified me bringing this to the attention of readers on this forum. I am sorry this view is not shared by Peter since it happens to mention a certain Kapellmeister.

I certainly have given careful thought to having a separate Luchesi website. Far more important in my view is a fair minded atttitude on issues such as the report that Beethoven composed a cantata aged 11 for the British Ambassador to Bonn.

Let us suppress the matter and have the name of Luchesi removed from every obelisk in Egypt. Reference to him tends to lend support that he was Beethoven's first real teacher of music. And that is stretching credibility to breaking point.

Regards


Robert

Dear Robert,

I have no wish to supress anything and the indulgence that has been given to the whole Luchesi debate over many months on this forum should convince you that those remarks are unfair. My desire is not to reopen this debate which has dominated the forum for far too long.



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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Dear Robert,

I have no wish to supress anything and the indulgence that has been given to the whole Luchesi debate over many months on this forum should convince you that those remarks are unfair. My desire is not to reopen this debate which has dominated the forum for far too long.

Peter I suggest it was the colossal amount of discussion generated regarding Luchesi, Mozart and Haydn that you should have cut off early.

And what about the 'Mozart and the Masons' chain? Ligeti? !!??

PS has anyone got any more Beethoven tracks for us to sample?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 06-25-2006).]

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Rod:

PS has anyone got any more Beethoven tracks for us to sample?

Dear Rod;

Well, I have a copy of an old J. Schuberth & Co. publication of Beethoven's rendition of "Erlkonig." I would love to hear it performed and/or recorded. I can supply the sheet music if someone can supply the pianist and the soprano (or tenor).


Hofrat

[robert newman]

Dear Peter,

I truly respect your position on Luchesi. My aim was not so much to debate (since this information is, as you see, already readily accessible) and has obvious relevance to studies of early Beethoven. Being a subject of such lengthy discussion here I did think that it would be allowed to stand without any controversy. I certainly won't post on the subject here again.

Best regards

[Rod]

Originally posted by Hofrat:

Dear Rod;

Well, I have a copy of an old J. Schuberth & Co. publication of Beethoven's rendition of "Erlkonig." I would love to hear it performed and/or recorded. I can supply the sheet music if someone can supply the pianist and the soprano (or tenor).

Hofrat

Well I was thinking of already recorded music, but if you can't find the performers just plug a microphone into your computer and sing the piece yourself (we can imagine the piano part if you can't play). I look forward to hearing you!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Rod:
Well I was thinking of already recorded music, but if you can't find the performers just plug a microphone into your computer and sing the piece yourself (we can imagine the piano part if you can't play). I look forward to hearing you!

Dear Rod;

I could never do justice to Beethoven by trying to perform the piece myself. One can hear Beethoven's "Erlkonig" on the Unheard Beethoven Site, if you do not mind listening to a piano accomanying a gazoo. That is why I am looking forward to a real live performance or recording.

BTW, Bela Bartok orchestrated Beethoven's "Erlkonig." But do not expect to hear that any time in the near future. Bartok's son refuses to release it.


Hofrat

[Rod]

Originally posted by Hofrat:

Dear Rod;

I could never do justice to Beethoven by trying to perform the piece myself. One can hear Beethoven's "Erlkonig" on the Unheard Beethoven Site, if you do not mind listening to a piano accomanying a gazoo...

Of course I was kidding but that would be an interesting arrangement Hofrat.

Whilst on the subject I remember I have a recording of B's own transcription of the opening of the 7th Symphony for piano. It's just 46 bars long and primarily of academic interest I suppose, but if anyone's interested I post it.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 06-25-2006).]

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Rod:

Whilst on the subject I remember I have a recording of B's own transcription of the opening of the 7th Symphony for piano. It's just 46 bars long and primarily of accademic interest I suppose, but if anyone's interested I post it.

Dear Rod;

Ah, Hess 96. The full sheet music (well, the 46 bars) appears in *The New Hess Catalog of Beethoven's Works" by James F. Green. It was prepared from the manuscript by Mark Zimmer, one of the Unheard Beethoven guys.


Hofrat

[Rod]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
Dear Rod;

Ah, Hess 96. The full sheet music (well, the 46 bars) appears in *The New Hess Catalog of Beethoven's Works" by James F. Green. It was prepared from the manuscript by Mark Zimmer, one of the Unheard Beethoven guys.


Hofrat

The wording from my source is not clear, but it implies that this was part of a complete arrangement of the symphony, published by Breitkopf and Hartel.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin