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    Furtwangler Ninth

    In observance of the end of Rod's recent excellent series of mp3 postings, I submitted an idea last week, which Peter welcomed, of having members post their favorite tracks on the public site which Rod discovered, for listening and hopefully comments by other members. As promised, here is my own first submission.

    This is a wartime performance of Beethoven's Ninth by Wilhelm Furtwangler leading the Berlin Philharmonic. Please follow instructions on the site for downloading, including waiting several seconds before the file becomes available.

    http://www.mysharefile.com/v/4540040..._1942.mp3.html

    Furtwangler was the pre-eminent German conductor of his day. He technically cooperated with the Nazis, but not in an enthusiastic way like conductor Herbert Karajan, who donned a Nazi uniform, or in an indifferent way like composer/conductor Richard Strauss, who thought of nothing but his career. Furtwangler's tolerance of the Nazi regime was by all accounts tortured. He felt himself the exemplar of German tradition in music and regarded the Nazi regime as a temporary stain on his country's greatness. He refused to perform the Nazi salute even when Hitler was in the audience, refused to fire Jewish musicians, refused to join the Party or to play in halls where the Nazi flag was displayed. He got away with these things because Hitler appreciated his greatness as a conductor and because the Nazis needed his reputation to burnish theirs. Nonetheless, he did tolerate the regime, did not protest the brutal treatment of Jews in general, stayed in Germany when he could have emigrated, and held high posts.

    In any case, this 1942 performance of the Ninth at a public concert where Hitler and the regime were in full attendance, is famous for its supposed expression of Furtwangler's tormented feelings, including anger toward the Nazis, thru the medium of Beethoven's music. Be that as it may, whether one believes that or not, the performance does strike me as very impassioned, the most powerful Ninth I have ever heard, especially the first movement, which has always been my favorite movement of this symphony. I have never heard the strong rhythms of this movement, played by the bass sections of the orchestra and the kettledrums, expressed as forcefully, and, yes, as tragically. In spite of the passion, the technical control of the orchestra, so difficult with this score, and the resulting forward surge of the music is never lost, even during the few expressive retards. To my ears, this interpretation is much more meaningful than the 'authentic' track which Rod recently posted, which I found technically good, but more mechanical and much less communicative of the very strong emotion which Beethoven put into the composition.



    [This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 06-14-2006).]
    See my paintings and sculptures at Saatchiart.com. In the search box, choose Artist and enter Charles Zigmund.

    #2
    I, for one, will happily give you an assessment tomorrow, bearing your above comments in mind (I'm not in a position at this moment to give it due attention).

    ------------------
    "If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
    http://classicalmusicmayhem.freeforums.org

    Comment


      #3
      I'm listening to your track as I type. Firstly I must say you could if you wanted have an interpretation like this on period instruments and have in addition the benefits of the colour and transparency in addition to Mr.F's vision of the piece.

      The recording may be old but the quality is adequate, though the drums seem unaturally high in the mix compared to any symphony orchestra I have heard (if indeed there actually was a 'mix'. The whole thing could have been recorded on a single mic placed next to the drums!). As I suspected the issue here does not seem to be the instruments but primarily the tempo. Furtwangler's tempo for this movment is very slow indeed, way slower than B's metronome. I suggest all the benefits you appear to perceive come from this factor alone. Sometimes a slower tempo can reveal things here and there but the cost is too great to the overall concept.

      It's all just too slow and heavy Chaszz, regardless of the instruments. If the other movements are of a proportionate pace this must be a very long performance.

      ------------------
      "If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin



      [This message has been edited by Rod (edited 06-16-2006).]
      http://classicalmusicmayhem.freeforums.org

      Comment


        #4
        Aside from the thunderous timpani and really vicious violins, I can't say that this performance has that much drive. In fact, it has nearly none, being so slow. It seems that what matters in this performance is how loud can people get, so you have loud, louder and AMAGAD loud. It is a fine performance, but I really think that rage isn't the only thing Beethoven wrote in this piece.

        ------------------
        "Wer ein holdes weib errugen..."
        "Wer ein holdes Weib errungen..."

        "My religion is the one in which Haydn is pope." - by me .

        "Set a course, take it slow, make it happen."

        Comment


          #5
          Also, do you people want me to post something of Brüggen's performance of the symphonies?

          ------------------
          "Wer ein holdes weib errugen..."
          "Wer ein holdes Weib errungen..."

          "My religion is the one in which Haydn is pope." - by me .

          "Set a course, take it slow, make it happen."

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Rutradelusasa:
            Also, do you people want me to post something of Brüggen's performance of the symphonies?


            For sure! I've been tryin to get these symphonies by Bruggen and the Orch of the C18th for years but you just cant get them anymore, in the UK at least.

            ------------------
            "If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
            http://classicalmusicmayhem.freeforums.org

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Rutradelusasa:
              Also, do you people want me to post something of Brüggen's performance of the symphonies?

              Yes all members are welcome to post their own choices.


              ------------------
              'Man know thyself'
              'Man know thyself'

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Peter:
                Yes all members are welcome to post their own choices.

                Ah you got out early on good behaviour Peter. I think we would all appreciate your comparitive assessment of the 9th Symphony tracks.


                ------------------
                "If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
                http://classicalmusicmayhem.freeforums.org

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Rod:

                  For sure! I've been tryin to get these symphonies by Bruggen and the Orch of the C18th for years but you just cant get them anymore, in the UK at least.


                  I have all nine here with me, I can rip them in a sec, but I want to know which one you want me to post and which movement.

                  ------------------
                  "Wer ein holdes weib errugen..."
                  "Wer ein holdes Weib errungen..."

                  "My religion is the one in which Haydn is pope." - by me .

                  "Set a course, take it slow, make it happen."

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Rutradelusasa:

                    I have all nine here with me, I can rip them in a sec, but I want to know which one you want me to post and which movement.


                    Well if we are concerned with comparitive assesment, the same as the others, 9th First movement. As for something else, how about 7th Allegretto?

                    ------------------
                    "If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
                    http://classicalmusicmayhem.freeforums.org

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Rutradelusasa:

                      I have all nine here with me, I can rip them in a sec, but I want to know which one you want me to post and which movement.

                      I would be interested in Beethoven's 5th Symphony, 1st movement. I'm always interested in hearing more versions of this piece.



                      ------------------
                      'Truth and beauty joined'
                      'Truth and beauty joined'

                      Comment


                        #12
                        I'm listening to the 9th now and I agree the timpani really gets a workout which I do love but it is a rather slow performance, however, I enjoy this movement so much it's difficult to be too critical. I just heard this last night on NPR's 'Beethoven's Journeys' with the Philadelphia Orchestra conductor Christoph Eschenbach discussing the Ninth Symphony and it was a great performance. I think his tempo was spot on IMHO. The second half (3rd and 4th movements) will be presented tonight on this final night of all 9 of Beethoven's Symphonies.

                        ------------------
                        'Truth and beauty joined'
                        'Truth and beauty joined'

                        Comment


                          #13
                          The Furt `42 is truly one of the all time great performances. Another awesome rendition is his `54 at Lucerne 9th. There is plenty of room for all sorts of interpretations. I have like 10 different versions of the 9th. They are all special in different ways, but Furtwangler is someone VERY SPECIAL. There is no ONE way to play Beethoven. And for the record -- Furtwangler is not necessarily "slow." He CHANGES tempo often, sometimes speeding up (actually going faster than conventional practice) and then slooowing down; always milking every dramatic moment. Yes, his Adagio clocks in at almost twice the time as most other versions, but MY GOD! -- the emotion he creates! Nobody conducts like him anymore -- the romantic Wagner school style. After becoming exposed to Furt I now find a lot of so-called "correct performances," i.e., "modern," to be boring. Beethoven himself was known to never play the same piece the same way, so I very much doubt he would disapprove of the Furt recordings.

                          Another ultimate Furt performance is the 5th symphony -- NOBODY did the scherzo to finale transistion better. In fact, I now can not listen to any other 5th without a tinge of disappointment. Such is genius -- it shows you the mediocrity in everything else.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by euphony131:
                            ...Such is genius -- it shows you the mediocrity in everything else.
                            I suggest this is 'genius' only to those who have a metabolic rate of zero. Beethoven is clear about what he wants otherwise he wouldn't have bothered with the metronome marks, and they are a hell of a lot faster than this track indicates. How anyone can prefer this to the track I posted by the Hanover Band is completely beyond me.

                            ------------------
                            "If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
                            http://classicalmusicmayhem.freeforums.org

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Rod:
                              I suggest this is 'genius' only to those who have a metabolic rate of zero. Beethoven is clear about what he wants otherwise he wouldn't have bothered with the metronome marks, and they are a hell of a lot faster than this track indicates. How anyone can prefer this to the track I posted by the Hanover Band is completely beyond me.

                              Well, you can't understand how anyone can enjoy Bach, or indeed any other composers except Beethoven and Handel. (The other day while working on my sculpture, on my NYC classical station I was enjoying Grieg, Glinka, Massenet, Faure, Gounod, and Wagner and feeling sorry for Rod that all this varied beauty was beyond his ken.) Be that as it may, I'm glad that this thread has stimulated discussion and different reactions. My intent is that the younger members of the forum should be at least aware of the older interpretations in contrast to the authentic instruments school, which in my opinion sometimes tends to "throw the baby out with the bath water."




                              [This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 06-17-2006).]
                              See my paintings and sculptures at Saatchiart.com. In the search box, choose Artist and enter Charles Zigmund.

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