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    #16
    On the metronome, here is something from a website titled simply 'Ludwig van Beethoven' at http://www.xs4all.nl/~ademu/Beethoven/

    "FAQ No. 14: Are Beethoven's famous metronome markings reliable or not?

    "Yes. Notwithstanding all the noise about them over the years there's actually not the slightest trace of a proof that Beethoven had misread his metronome or had suffered from a "manic-depressive attack" or had been too deaf (the markings date from 1817 and later) or had used a disabled metronome or had erred in whatever what other way. It's not difficult to devote many a book to all the attempts to "explain" his "unplayable" markings. In the seventies of the 20th century it finally turned out that Schindler, his first (and very unreliable) biographer, is the source of all the confusion. Schindler disliked Beethoven's metronome markings. He considered them far too fast. After Beethoven's death he embarked on a enterprise that was to become -maybe- the main goal of his life: the "correction" of those markings into a much slower direction. With this goal in mind he "rewrote" parts of the conversation books and even produced a fake score: WoO.162. For many a decade performers took Schindler seriously and overlooked his many forgeries (not only on the metronome markings, but also connected to various important biographical problems, alas). Thanks to the research of the German researchers Beck and Herre and the American researcher Howell we now know that it's high time to throw all the speculations about Beethoven's so-called unplayable metronome markings into the dustbin. They are playable indeed. However, it needs a small, but first-class orchestra, a first-class conductor and first-class soloist(s). There is only one exception and unfortunately this is Beethoven's most famous composition: his last symphony. When he wrote down the metronome markings for this music his personal circumstances were difficult and careful research has shown that he obviously made a few errors. The discussion on this complex problem is still going on."
    See my paintings and sculptures at Saatchiart.com. In the search box, choose Artist and enter Charles Zigmund.

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      #17
      Originally posted by Chaszz:
      On the metronome, here is something from a website titled simply 'Ludwig van Beethoven' at http://www.xs4all.nl/~ademu/Beethoven/

      "FAQ No. 14: Are Beethoven's famous metronome markings reliable or not?

      "Yes. Notwithstanding all the noise about them over the years there's actually not the slightest trace of a proof that Beethoven had misread his metronome or had suffered from a "manic-depressive attack" or had been too deaf (the markings date from 1817 and later) or had used a disabled metronome or had erred in whatever what other way. It's not difficult to devote many a book to all the attempts to "explain" his "unplayable" markings. In the seventies of the 20th century it finally turned out that Schindler, his first (and very unreliable) biographer, is the source of all the confusion. Schindler disliked Beethoven's metronome markings. He considered them far too fast. After Beethoven's death he embarked on a enterprise that was to become -maybe- the main goal of his life: the "correction" of those markings into a much slower direction. With this goal in mind he "rewrote" parts of the conversation books and even produced a fake score: WoO.162. For many a decade performers took Schindler seriously and overlooked his many forgeries (not only on the metronome markings, but also connected to various important biographical problems, alas). Thanks to the research of the German researchers Beck and Herre and the American researcher Howell we now know that it's high time to throw all the speculations about Beethoven's so-called unplayable metronome markings into the dustbin. They are playable indeed. However, it needs a small, but first-class orchestra, a first-class conductor and first-class soloist(s). There is only one exception and unfortunately this is Beethoven's most famous composition: his last symphony. When he wrote down the metronome markings for this music his personal circumstances were difficult and careful research has shown that he obviously made a few errors. The discussion on this complex problem is still going on."
      That's fair enough Chaszz, I wonder how you see all this fitting in with Furtwangler's interpretation? But performers should not need research to conclude that Beethoven's tempi are on the fast side, it is quite clear from the music even to a complete novice (if not, alas, a typical music professor). And I doubt if any composer used as many 'con brio's and 'molto vivace's etc as Beethoven. When moderate tempos are used for these allegros the music tends to fail in its effect.

      There is an metronome error in the 9th symphony conserning the march in the finale - it's way too slow - but whether this was Beethoven's fault I'm not so sure.

      ------------------
      "If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

      [This message has been edited by Rod (edited 06-18-2006).]
      http://classicalmusicmayhem.freeforums.org

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        #18
        Originally posted by Chaszz:
        Well, you can't understand how anyone can enjoy Bach, or indeed any other composers except Beethoven and Handel. (The other day while working on my sculpture, on my NYC classical station I was enjoying Grieg, Glinka, Massenet, Faure, Gounod, and Wagner and feeling sorry for Rod that all this varied beauty was beyond his ken.) Be that as it may, I'm glad that this thread has stimulated discussion and different reactions. My intent is that the younger members of the forum should be at least aware of the older interpretations in contrast to the authentic instruments school, which in my opinion sometimes tends to "throw the baby out with the bath water."

        [This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 06-17-2006).]
        Bach is pleasant but lacks musical interest compared to Beethoven or Handel. The other music either self indulgent and/or not very interesting by Beethoven's standard also. If I though otherwise I doubt I'd be here so much, I'd be an occasional visitor like yourself. Remember where you are when you're here Chaszz!

        I do not have unreserved allegiance to the 'Authentic School' as you may have observed from my many critical comments over the years about such performances that are as flawed as Furtwangler's.

        ------------------
        "If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin



        [This message has been edited by Rod (edited 06-17-2006).]
        http://classicalmusicmayhem.freeforums.org

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          #19
          Rod

          You write:

          Bach is pleasant but lacks musical interest compared to Beethoven or Handel (my emphasis)

          I'm in sympathy with the general thrust of Chassz's argument on all this.

          Furthermore, for me, Bach is a towering genius in the history of western 'classical' music. So I should be interested if you would develop your observation about musical interest - some form of definition/clarification perhaps? - and, in the light of that, why you feel Back lacks it where, say, Handel does not.

          Euan

          PS: Some years ago I heard a broadcast of Beethoven's 'Eroica' symphony conducted by Furtwangler. It was superb but, unfortunately, I did not note the performance (date, orchestra etc). Minimal information, I know, but if anyone has any ideas ...

          Comment


            #20
            Originally posted by Rod:
            Bach is pleasant but lacks musical interest compared to Beethoven or Handel. The other music either self indulgent and/or not very interesting by Beethoven's standard also. If I though otherwise I doubt I'd be here so much, I'd be an occasional visitor like yourself. Remember where you are when you're here Chaszz!

            I do not have unreserved allegiance to the 'Authentic School' as you may have observed from my many critical comments over the years about such performances that are as flawed as Furtwangler's.

            Surely you jest,
            You are not telling us that the wonderful Masses, concertos, and keyboard works lack musical interest. There is a case for saying that Bach was the greatest composer of all time. If one looks at the astonishing intellectual and musical achievement of his output. Basically Handel for all his genius is not in the same class as Bach . The only person who comes near it is Beethoven. Handel's music can be very predictable as much as Ilove it too.

            ...

            Comment


              #21
              Originally posted by Euan Mackinnon:
              Rod

              You write:

              Bach is pleasant but lacks musical interest compared to Beethoven or Handel (my emphasis)

              I'm in sympathy with the general thrust of Chassz's argument on all this.

              Furthermore, for me, Bach is a towering genius in the history of western 'classical' music. So I should be interested if you would develop your observation about musical interest - some form of definition/clarification perhaps? - and, in the light of that, why you feel Back lacks it where, say, Handel does not.

              Euan
              You should not be surprised to read someone rating Beethoven above Bach in a Beethoven forum. Yet again I am exasperated.

              Concerning Handel and Bach, I suggest it is really you who should be explaining the reasoning behind your position.


              ------------------
              "If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
              http://classicalmusicmayhem.freeforums.org

              Comment


                #22
                Originally posted by Bobbie:
                Surely you jest,
                You are not telling us that the wonderful Masses, concertos, and keyboard works lack musical interest. There is a case for saying that Bach was the greatest composer of all time. If one looks at the astonishing intellectual and musical achievement of his output. Basically Handel for all his genius is not in the same class as Bach . The only person who comes near it is Beethoven. Handel's music can be very predictable as much as Ilove it too.

                ...
                May I direct the gentleman to my previous post in this chain.

                Or go to my Handel site and hear the reason! http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/handelforum/


                ------------------
                "If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

                [This message has been edited by Rod (edited 06-17-2006).]
                http://classicalmusicmayhem.freeforums.org

                Comment


                  #23
                  Originally posted by Chaszz:
                  [B]

                  In the seventies of the 20th century it finally turned out that Schindler, his first (and very unreliable) biographer, is the source of all the confusion. Schindler disliked Beethoven's metronome markings. He considered them far too fast. After Beethoven's death he embarked on a enterprise that was to become -maybe- the main goal of his life: the "correction" of those markings into a much slower direction. With this goal in mind he "rewrote" parts of the conversation books and even produced a fake score: WoO.162.

                  {B]
                  That scoundrel!



                  ------------------
                  'Truth and beauty joined'
                  'Truth and beauty joined'

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Originally posted by Joy:
                    That scoundrel!

                    He was a cheeky boy that Schindler. On the subject of Metronome one must also consider for example Czerny's figures for Beethoven pieces. These are also on the fast side compared to the post-war Germanic standard. Was Czerny's metronome faulty too I wonder!?

                    ------------------
                    "If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
                    http://classicalmusicmayhem.freeforums.org

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Originally posted by Chaszz:
                      In observance of the end of Rod's recent excellent series of mp3 postings, I submitted an idea last week, which Peter welcomed, of having members post their favorite tracks on the public site which Rod discovered, for listening and hopefully comments by other members. As promised, here is my own first submission.
                      Thanks for posting this MP3. This is the first time I've heard this Furtwangler performance. I share your admiration--what I hear is powerful to the extreme. The piccolos & flutes at about 9:58 are spine-tingling.

                      But why rip at such a low bitrate (56 here)? The file-sharing site can certainly handle higher bitrate MP3s, & it wouldn't take that much longer to download an MP3 at 128.

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Originally posted by Rod:
                        Bach is pleasant but lacks musical interest compared to Beethoven or Handel. The other music either self indulgent and/or not very interesting by Beethoven's standard also. If I though{t} otherwise I doubt I'd be here so much, I'd be an occasional visitor like yourself. Remember where you are when you're here Chaszz!...


                        Remember where I am when I'm here!...this seems to be a veiled request or directive to not be speaking too much of the the virtues of other composers on a Beethoven site. And not the first time you have implied this, when in the past the fur has flown on the subject of Bach or other composers.

                        I answer with two points. Number one, the charter statement of the forum allows for discussion of Beethoven and other classical composers. Two, when the subject is Handel you are none too finicky about keeping it a just-Beethoven site. So accord champions of other masters the same latitude you accord yourself with Handel.
                        See my paintings and sculptures at Saatchiart.com. In the search box, choose Artist and enter Charles Zigmund.

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Originally posted by DavidO:

                          But why rip at such a low bitrate (56 here)? The file-sharing site can certainly handle higher bitrate MP3s, & it wouldn't take that much longer to download an MP3 at 128.

                          I doubt 128 would make much improvement to the sound of this recording, the quality of which is firmly in the 'historical' category, meanwhile it would increase the download time substantially for anyone without broadband (the file is already 7mb as it is). Personally I recommend 64kbps WMA as the best compromise solution.

                          ------------------
                          "If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

                          [This message has been edited by Rod (edited 06-19-2006).]
                          http://classicalmusicmayhem.freeforums.org

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Originally posted by Chaszz:
                            Remember where I am when I'm here!...this seems to be a veiled request or directive to not be speaking too much of the the virtues of other composers on a Beethoven site. And not the first time you have implied this, when in the past the fur has flown on the subject of Bach or other composers.
                            And it is not the first time you misunderstood the point of my remark, even after I explained it. My point is that although CM generally is dicussed here, this is NOT a general CM site, it's primary focus is Beethoven. So persons visiting this place should not be surprised to find here other persons who believe Beethoven is 'the greatest' or whatever.

                            I wouldn't go to a Bach forum just to say 'Hi I prefer Beethoven, why don't you guys?'. In fact I doubt I will ever visit a Bach forum, why would I?

                            Originally posted by Chaszz:

                            I answer with two points. Number one, the charter statement of the forum allows for discussion of Beethoven and other classical composers. Two, when the subject is Handel you are none too finicky about keeping it a just-Beethoven site. So accord champions of other masters the same latitude you accord yourself with Handel.
                            I disagree, considering some of the relatively huge chains you sometimes find here devoted to other (ie excl Beethoven) composers I am the model of restraint. In fact the reason why I created my Handel site was precisely to avoid taking advantage of this place for my own ends. You may remember for a while this page became a virtual Mozart Forum, to name but one. That phase passed but if it was like that all the time I doubt I would continue comming here.

                            ------------------
                            "If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


                            [This message has been edited by Rod (edited 06-19-2006).]
                            http://classicalmusicmayhem.freeforums.org

                            Comment


                              #29
                              This is interesting, but is quite close to madness, IMHO. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBT7W7uJ3ds

                              ------------------
                              "Wer ein holdes weib errugen..."
                              "Wer ein holdes Weib errungen..."

                              "My religion is the one in which Haydn is pope." - by me .

                              "Set a course, take it slow, make it happen."

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Originally posted by Rutradelusasa:
                                This is interesting, but is quite close to madness, IMHO. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBT7W7uJ3ds

                                Who is mad here, the Nazis, or Furtwangler (ho ho)? Concerning the music, on this occasion very quick, rushed even, apart from the final rendition of the words 'Freude schone gotter funken' where everything really slows down, thens speeds up again for the final orchestral tutti. I heard Haitink do exactly the same a few weeks back and I don't like it!


                                ------------------
                                "If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
                                http://classicalmusicmayhem.freeforums.org

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