'Temperament', by Stuart Isacoff

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:

Originally posted by Rod:
Does the book offer any interesting quotes on the matter from composers from that era? But there was no equal temperament during Beethoven's lifetime.

What temperament was there...Well temperament?

I think 'Mean'

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Rod:

I think 'Mean'

I understand that there was also use of one called, "Werckmeister" or "Kimberger" which was a combination of the Pythagorean and Mean temperaments. I generally keep my digital keyboard tuned to this temperament, so when I play something with a more modern tuning it sounds a bit odd to me.

[Chaszz]

Well, either 'Mean' or 'Well' would mean to me that when we hear a piece from say 1810, or 1740, in 'Equal', that we do not hear what the composer wrote. Original instruments or not. Rod, do your 'authentic' performances include authentic temperaments? Are the fortepianos tuned to 'Mean?' If not, they cannot really be authentic. No?

[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 06-14-2006).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Well, either 'Mean' or 'Well' would mean to me that when we hear a piece from say 1810, or 1740, in 'Equal', that we do not hear what the composer wrote. Original instruments or not. Rod, do your 'authentic' performances include authentic temperaments? Are the fortepianos tuned to 'Mean?' If not, they cannot really be authentic. No?

[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 06-14-2006).]

Yes you are correct, I know for a fact that some of my recordings use equal temperament and thus are not 'authentic' in this respect. Some others I know for a fact are 'Well', in some other recordings the keyboard sometimes sounds a little 'out' of tune here and there but I am not in a position to confirm for sure the temperament (assuming the piano is tuned correctly!). And remember this is not just an issue regarding Beethoven, think of all the other contemporary and especially the earlier genres of music.

To my ears now it is the moden piano sounds quite odd, I use the terms 'easy' or 'unengaging', and the tuning must have some part in this. Perhaps 'Equal' is like a Jack of all trades but master of none. I heard op109 and 110 live a few weeks back on a Steinway, believe it or not this was the first time I had heard them on anything other than a Graf for over 10 years, and I was most dissatisfied with the effect. I thought the 'live' experience would add something, but it did not, and I had a perfect seat!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
I understand that there was also use of one called, "Werckmeister" or "Kimberger" which was a combination of the Pythagorean and Mean temperaments. I generally keep my digital keyboard tuned to this temperament, so when I play something with a more modern tuning it sounds a bit odd to me.

Yes I recall a few 'exotic' names like these but to be honest I have never looked into the issue in great detail. I have a CD of Handel's Waterand Fire Music where the winds are tuned to mean-tone temperament and the effect is sometimes quite astonishing.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
Yes you are correct, I know for a fact that some of my recordings use equal temperament and thus are not 'authentic' in this respect. Some others I know for a fact are 'Well',....

If you could relent for a moment and post a 'Well tempered' piece here (or on your Handel site) I would be very interested in hearing it. It would be fascinating to actually hear the difference.

How do you know it when a recording is 'well' rather than 'equal?' Does it say so on the liner notes?

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
If you could relent for a moment and post a 'Well tempered' piece here (or on your Handel site) I would be very interested in hearing it. It would be fascinating to actually hear the difference.

How do you know it when a recording is 'well' rather than 'equal?' Does it say so on the liner notes?

Yes sometimes it says so in the notes, but mostly not, but I was not just thinking of the piano but also the harpsichord and the organ. Some of my fp recordings presented here have been accused of being 'out of tune' so maybe these have a different temperament. I'm done with posting here for a while, you all know my position on everything so now it's time for someone else's perspective. If I come across something really interesting of course you'll be the first to know here. In the 'mean' time I direct you to my Handel site for my final extracts from op6! http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/handelforum/


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin