'Temperament', by Stuart Isacoff

[Rod]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Just to let people know that I plan to be moving from England to the USA (Virginia) in late July this year. If all goes well hope to live there for around 2 years. And then France. Will still be keen to stay in touch with this forum.

Regards

Robert

Are you 'on the run' Robert? Threating letters from the Mozart Mafia? Believe me they'll catch up with you in the US, if not Paris was my second home for a while and there are a whole host of Mozart fans there too, there's no place you can hide.

By the way if you want your book back we'll have to meet up before you go/get shot.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[robert newman]

Ha Rod ! Nice one. 'On the run' from the UK ? Wish I was. No - it's snail's pace I regret. Please keep the book. Best regards.

France certainly has many Mozart fans ? Sure. They have too a remarkable list of composers from the 19th and 20th centuries that makes our (British) compositional achievements seem much more modest - or so I think. More importantly, they have large areas of beautiful countryside and (I think) a quality of life that is worth working to immerse myself in.

Imagine rivers with fish in that are not bar-coded by the 'National Trust'. Or meadows with dozens of different sorts of wild flowers. Very 'Pastoral' ! Worth aiming for.

Regards

Robert

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Ha Rod ! Nice one. 'On the run' from the UK ? Wish I was. No - it's snail's pace I regret. Please keep the book. Best regards.

France certainly has many Mozart fans ? Sure. They have too a remarkable list of composers from the 19th and 20th centuries that makes our (British) compositional achievements seem much more modest - or so I think. More importantly, they have large areas of beautiful countryside and (I think) a quality of life that is worth working to immerse myself in.

Imagine rivers with fish in that are not bar-coded by the 'National Trust'. Or meadows with dozens of different sorts of wild flowers. Very 'Pastoral' ! Worth aiming for.

Regards

Robert

Paris also has lots of concerts featuring Vivaldi's Four Seasons, or did when I was there last week. With all due respect to Vivaldi, in my opinion this work should be retired for awhile. Or perhaps one should anyway be grateful for a city in which posters for classical concerts are slapped up on any wall as if they were alternative rock concerts, something I have not seen in New York in many years.

Robert, in moving to Virginia you will be close to our massive intelligence network, at last call consisting of more agencies than can be counted, a whole host of chicks nestling under the hen of the giant National Security Agency, all dedicated to putting our Bill of Rights into the dustbin of history. With your interest in conspiracies, is it possible you have some shadowy connection with them? Is it possible that Mozart lived past his death and was involved in the XYZ affair? That in The Art of Fugue is a hidden clue to Iran's intentions? Or so forth?...

[robert newman]

Hi Chassz,

I will be going as a tourist (and this as my first visit to the USA). Amongst other things I would like to find out more of the music of the American Red Indians. (That subject fascinates me and I know virtually nothing of it).

I don't really have favourite conspiracies despite the fact that (in my view) they are certainly a major issue in the modern political world. I think most people are fairly sceptical of 'official reports' these days - as rightly sceptical as they are of governments, kwangos, and politicians themselves. In this sense I'm no more of a conspiracist than most other people.

Somebody recently asked why I should ever have bothered about such an 'exotic conspiracy' as the one I and others suggest of Mozart, biographically. I can only say that if, today, there was already a healthy, ongoing debunking of many aspects of Mozart's supposed life and career (to say nothing of his list of works) I would hardly have been interested in criticising the 'officialdom'at such length as to now be regarded as a heretic on the subject. But fair and reasonable standards seem to be conspicuous by their absence on issue after issue within mainstream 'Mozart research' and this has given me hope. (It still does). Besides, I truly believe this man was, in reality, a very different one from that conveyed to us in correspondence and in the greatly sanitised early biographies.

Why bother ? Well, from him in particular has come a huge error in believing that peope can do great things in fields such as musical composition or art in general with little or minimal learning. Such a myth certainly runs contrary to available evidence. And yet Mozart is (in the minds of the general public, at least) a stereotypical 'genius' - a person assumed to have done astounding musical things despite lacking a thorough musical education and despite his career often being highly dubious. Such a myth (though its main points have long been virtual icons to our civilization/education) seems to me a gross and malicious error.

No, I've no connection with murky beaurocrats or government bodies. I'm just a good friend of someone who works in Washington - a person as passionate about eventually living in France as myself.

(I greatly admire the history and Constitution of the USA and think constitutionally it's perhaps the finest ever made. Paine and others have my real admiration. Like him I view politicians as a necessary evil. (But, again, so do most people). I specially like what Paine wrote, 'That the whole point of founding the USA is to have a land fit for honest people to live in'. Outside of political elites I think the country is, still, a great nation. One worthy of respect/admiration by anyone.

Your idea of Mozart's longevity is fascinating though you may smile if I treat it (as perhaps I must) with a 'pinch of Salzburg'.

Regards







[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 06-07-2006).]

[Euan Mackinnon]

Chassz

Euan, if you were to read Isacoff, you would see that he does give a good rendition of the interplay between physics and music in history, and the central place that music played in the speculations of the great physicists like Galileo and Newton.

Thanks for the advice. I will add the book to my ever-growing 'pending'list after all.

The other 18th C. temperament which was widespread was 'Well', which as I said before, was a compromise between 'Just' and 'Equal.' I would guess it might be very striking to hear in that it retained some of the impact of the acoustically perfect thirds, fourths and fifths which had to be respaced for 'Equal.'


I am wondering whether a new thread - one that examines and summarises the development of 'temperament' - is worth considering. Interested?

For example, I am not clear from what has been said in this thread here what Beethoven experienced by way of variations in temperament and, if any, how he may have exploited them musically.

First, though, I will need to research what has already been said on this forum before I joined.

Euan

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Euan Mackinnon:
Chassz

Euan, if you were to read Isacoff, you would see that he does give a good rendition of the interplay between physics and music in history, and the central place that music played in the speculations of the great physicists like Galileo and Newton.

Thanks for the advice. I will add the book to my ever-growing 'pending'list after all.

The other 18th C. temperament which was widespread was 'Well', which as I said before, was a compromise between 'Just' and 'Equal.' I would guess it might be very striking to hear in that it retained some of the impact of the acoustically perfect thirds, fourths and fifths which had to be respaced for 'Equal.'


I am wondering whether a new thread - one that examines and summarises the development of 'temperament' - is worth considering. Interested?

For example, I am not clear from what has been said in this thread here what Beethoven experienced by way of variations in temperament and, if any, how he may have exploited them musically.

First, though, I will need to research what has already been said on this forum before I joined.

Euan

There were so many temperaments in use during the 17th, 18th and early 19th centuries, that I think it would be difficult to determine exactly what Beethoven, Bach or Mozart knew or used. Or that is my impression anyway. Other opinions, anyone?

Chaszz

[robert newman]

I don't know if this is relevant to this thread but I've recently read this -

''Beethoven was playing a new piano concerto of his own, but from the beginning he forgot he was soloist and had jumped up and began to conduct in his own peculiar fashion. At the first loud passage he threw out his arms so wide he knocked over both the lamps from the music stand of the piano. The audience laughed and Beethoven was so affected that he stopped the orchestra and made them start again. Seyfried, worried this would happen again, took the precaution of ordering two choirboys to stand next to him and hold the lamps. One of them innocently stepped closer and followed the music from the piano part. But when the same moment came again the poor boy received from Beethoven’s right hand such a slap in the face that he dropped the lamp to the floor. The other boy, who had been anxiously following Beethoven’s movements, succeeded in avoiding a blow by ducking in time. If the audience had laughed the first time, they were now in uproar. Beethoven began to play with such fury that when he struck the first chord of the solo he broke six piano strings. Every effort of the music-lovers to restore calm and attention was unsuccessful for some time. And thus the first movement of this concerto was completely lost on the audience ’....etc. (Louis Spohr)

If Spohr's account is correct, this suggests to me that the great composers (at least Beethoven) were more pragmatic about matters of temperament/tuning than might be supposed.
Their compositions were rooted in theory and convention, and such issues as tuning for performance were decided on locally by those who oversaw the physical performance/maintenance of the instruments.(Including piano tuners).

I don't know which concerto of Beethoven Spohr seems to be alluding to here. If Beethoven broke 6 piano strings at the first moment he began to play, isn't this an account of an early performance of the 'Emperor' concerto ?

To have fixed these broken piano strings before Beethoven began again suggests there really was a person/persons at that public concert whose job it was to make such repairs. But how long would that audience have needed to wait before they could actually hear this concerto ? At least an hour, I suppose. (?)

I personally doubt that issues of temperance had much relevance to composers at the public performance level. In fact, I can't think of a single example of any music composer who insisted on tuning/temperament issues to be precisely settled to his satisfaction for the public performance of his music.




[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 06-11-2006).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by robert newman:

....If Spohr's account is correct, this suggests to me that the great composers (at least Beethoven) were more pragmatic about matters of temperament/tuning than might be supposed.
Their compositions were rooted in theory and convention, and such issues as tuning for performance were decided on locally by those who oversaw the physical performance/maintenance of the instruments.(Including piano tuners).

I don't know which concerto of Beethoven Spohr seems to be alluding to here. If Beethoven broke 6 piano strings at the first moment he began to play, isn't this an account of an early performance of the 'Emperor' concerto ?

To have fixed these broken piano strings before Beethoven began again suggests there really was a person/persons at that public concert whose job it was to make such repairs. But how long would that audience have needed to wait before they could actually hear this concerto ? At least an hour, I suppose. (?)

I personally doubt that issues of temperance had much relevance to composers at the public performance level. In fact, I can't think of a single example of any music composer who insisted on tuning/temperament issues to be precisely settled to his satisfaction for the public performance of his music.


[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 06-11-2006).]

That is a well known account of a Beethoven performance, but not I think of the fifth. Off the top of my head I can't remember the actual concerto but it must have been the third or fourth. I suspect he probably played on with the strings still broken, it would take too long to replace them.

I think temperament was more an issue of the piano manufacturers and tuners than the performers. I know of no anecdote of Beethoven on the matter. But it is still an issue worth considering. Beethoven didn't take his own piano with him wherever he played, he just used whatever was available at the venue. According to another account by Spohr, by the time of the Archduke trio it seems he was oblivious to tuning in any case due to his increasing deafness.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 06-11-2006).]

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
That is a well known account of a Beethoven performance, but not I think of the fifth. Off the top of my head I can't remember the actual concerto but it must have been the third or fourth. I suspect he probably played on with the strings still broken, it would take too long to replace them.

I think temperament was more an issue of the piano manufacturers and tuners than the performers. I know of no anecdote of Beethoven on the matter. But it is still an issue worth considering. Beethoven didn't take his own piano with him wherever he played, he just used whatever was available at the venue. According to another account by Spohr, by the time of the Archduke trio it seems he was oblivious to tuning in any case due to his increasing deafness.

Acording to the Isacoff book, temperament was a hot issue for most composers of the 17th and 18th centuries, although by Beethoven's time it might have been largely resolved in favor of equal temperament.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:

Acording to the Isacoff book, temperament was a hot issue for most composers of the 17th and 18th centuries, although by Beethoven's time it might have been largely resolved in favor of equal temperament.

Does the book offer any interesting quotes on the matter from composers from that era? But there was no equal temperament during Beethoven's lifetime.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 06-11-2006).]

[robert newman]

But how can this account by Spohr refer to a perfomance by Beethoven of either the 3rd or 4th concertos ? I can't see how Beethoven could possibly have broken 6 piano strings in performing the opening bars of the 4th concerto, or even in the opening of the 3rd. It's really mysterious. Was it possibly a performance of his Choral Fantasy ? This would be consistent with choir boys being in attendance. (Just a suggestion).

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:

But how can this account by Spohr refer to a perfomance by Beethoven of either the 3rd or 4th concertos ? I can't see how Beethoven could possibly have broken 6 piano strings in performing the opening bars of the 4th concerto, or even in the opening of the 3rd. It's really mysterious. Was it possibly a performance of his Choral Fantasy ? This would be consistent with choir boys being in attendance. (Just a suggestion).

Spohr was referring to the 4th concerto -recapitulation of the main theme, fortissimo chords.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Yes Peter I though the 4th was the more likely. But Robert considering each note had more than one string it would not necessarily be a disaster if a few broke, as long as the broken strings did not interfere with the others (or were moved aside).

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[robert newman]

OK thanks. The 4th ? Yes, fine. Now it's explained it makes perfect sense.

p.s. Thank you Joy !


[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 06-11-2006).]

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
Does the book offer any interesting quotes on the matter from composers from that era? But there was no equal temperament during Beethoven's lifetime.

What temperament was there...Well temperament?