Authentic Instrument mp3s - Missa Solemnis 4th movt

[Joy]

I agree. A wonderful performance and recording of a most beautiful Beethoven piece indeed.

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[lvbfanatic]

Originally posted by Rod:
...if you can't find this version, get Gardiner's on the Archiv label. You can't go wrong with these.

Rod... much as I admire your considerable wealth of Beethoven and music knowledge I must caution that the Gardiner version may not be enjoyable to quite a number of LVB fans who have experienced a number of different performances over the years.

For example, the Gardiner performance seems to sound like the Karajan 1960's recording of the Missa. Only, the Karajan version is better than the Gardiner. I am still trying to find the Toscanini interpretation and have not seen it anywhere, although it's rumoured that it exists.

The Barenboim version is rather uneven. It has some great moments, but then it has some Barenboim moments. This is one conductor who never seems to get out of the composer's way.

The single worst performance of the Missa that I endured was from the Hanover Band. I thought that the *original* instrumentation would provide some musical insights. However, that gimmick was no excuse for the wretchedness.

So,with all due respects, it would seem to me that if the version of the currently downloadable extracts can't be easily found, then the alternative recordings are a mixed bag and should be considered carefully.



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A Calm Sea and A Prosperous Voyage

[Cetto von Cronstorff]

Originally posted by Rod:
With regard to tempo and playing Gardiner's is probably the best

Gardiner's recording IMO is ruined completely by Catherine Mackintosh's off-pitch violin playing in the 'Et incarnatus'.

[Rod]

Originally posted by lvbfanatic:
Rod... much as I admire your considerable wealth of Beethoven and music knowledge I must caution that the Gardiner version may not be enjoyable to quite a number of LVB fans who have experienced a number of different performances over the years.

For example, the Gardiner performance seems to sound like the Karajan 1960's recording of the Missa. Only, the Karajan version is better than the Gardiner. I am still trying to find the Toscanini interpretation and have not seen it anywhere, although it's rumoured that it exists.

The Barenboim version is rather uneven. It has some great moments, but then it has some Barenboim moments. This is one conductor who never seems to get out of the composer's way.

The single worst performance of the Missa that I endured was from the Hanover Band. I thought that the *original* instrumentation would provide some musical insights. However, that gimmick was no excuse for the wretchedness.

So,with all due respects, it would seem to me that if the version of the currently downloadable extracts can't be easily found, then the alternative recordings are a mixed bag and should be considered carefully.

In the current context my primary concern is the period instruments, secondary are things such as tempi, use of vibrato etc, only after that the quality of the singing or playing.

My first Missa was a Karajan effort, and was a reasonable account apart from the Credo was way too slow, a common occurence with older recordings of this piece from my experience. No recording sould require more than one CD, by default I reject anything requiring two.

It is interesting that the worst performance from your experience is the one I present to this site's WMA page as a pretty good effort, namely that of the Hanover band. Obviously you have not visited the password protected page itself! Please notice the good reviews here of the track I presented. The recording has just been re-released for your information.

I'd be interested to know what recording you recommend, other than Toscanini.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Cetto von Cronstorff:
Gardiner's recording IMO is ruined completely by Catherine Mackintosh's off-pitch violin playing in the 'Et incarnatus'.

Well I've heard a few other efforts were every movement is ruined. There is a certain lack of warmth in the Kyrie of Gardiner's to my taste, but the other movement's are quite electric compared to the norm for this piece from my experience. My primary concern here is the period style instruments - any off-pitch intonation is not the fault of the violin.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 05-04-2006).]

[Sorrano]

My preferred version was the Bernstein with the NY Phil, as I recall. Unfortunately, I no longer have this as I got rid of it with the rest of my vinyls. I realize that I am very biased with this version as it was one of the first I heard and it did move me deeply at the time.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
My preferred version was the Bernstein with the NY Phil, as I recall. Unfortunately, I no longer have this as I got rid of it with the rest of my vinyls. I realize that I am very biased with this version as it was one of the first I heard and it did move me deeply at the time.

I had a recording of the MS with Bernstein and the VPO, on DG label. It was live I think. I recall thinking the whole thing was rather a soggy account, though not bad. The soloists weren't the best.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Rod:
I had a recording of the MS with Bernstein and the VPO, on DG label. It was live I think. I recall thinking the whole thing was rather a soggy account, though not bad. The soloists weren't the best.

Seems that the recording I had was with the New York Phil, but I do know it wasn't a DG label. Unfortunately, I do not recall many details about the recording itself. I couldn't find it on Amazon.

[lvbfanatic]

Originally posted by Rod:
It is interesting that the worst performance from your experience is the one I present to this site's WMA page as a pretty good effort, namely that of the Hanover band. Obviously you have not visited the password protected page itself! Please notice the good reviews here of the track I presented. The recording has just been re-released for your information.

I'd be interested to know what recording you recommend, other than Toscanini.

The Hanover band cd that I got was recorded in the Great Hall of Birmingham U in 1987. I was not impressed with this version... even though it does fit on a single cd clocking in at 71' 47".

If this was the cd from which you extracted the excerpt then it is entirely possible that the particular passage was better than average.

The same can be said for the Barenboim version which has some excellent moments and descends occasionally into doghood.

Overall, since you asked, and since I have not yet heard the much rumoured Toscanini versions which I will do my utmost to uncover, the balance of personal favour is tipped towards the mid '60s vinyl version conducted by Karajan. This preference also acknowledges that there are spots in the K version which are better done elsewhere. But with a work as massive and as complex as the MS that must be expected and forgiven eventually.



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A Calm Sea and A Prosperous Voyage

[Rod]

Originally posted by lvbfanatic:
The Hanover band cd that I got was recorded in the Great Hall of Birmingham U in 1987. I was not impressed with this version... even though it does fit on a single cd clocking in at 71' 47".

If this was the cd from which you extracted the excerpt then it is entirely possible that the particular passage was better than average.

The same can be said for the Barenboim version which has some excellent moments and descends occasionally into doghood.

Overall, since you asked, and since I have not yet heard the much rumoured Toscanini versions which I will do my utmost to uncover, the balance of personal favour is tipped towards the mid '60s vinyl version conducted by Karajan. This preference also acknowledges that there are spots in the K version which are better done elsewhere. But with a work as massive and as complex as the MS that must be expected and forgiven eventually.

I indicated above that this recording by the Hanover band is not perfect, but you admit the same of the 'K' version you mention. However what I present here is not a mere excerpt but the whole Sanctus and Benedictus, and the reason I selected this track was a matter of content versus file size, not the quality of the performance per se. You must understand that I can easily accept certain flaws as long as other more important criteria are met, because alas it seems no conductor is capable of understanding Beethoven 100%.

What I like about the Hanover Band version is that the sound has a Baroque quality that the big symphony orchestras can never emulate, even with 'Mr T' at the helm. I experienced not of this essential element in my MS recording from the 80s by Karajan and the BPO. For me Beethoven, be it early, middle or late period, is never far from the Baroque. But you pays your money, you takes your choice...



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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[lvbfanatic]

Quite perchance I happened on an MP3 excerpt taken from a Toscanini recording now available on CD. It appears to have been originally recorded in December of 1940 with the Westminster Choir and the NBC Symphony Orchestra. Below is the link to the MP3 excerpt.

http://www.classicalmusicmobile.com/...iniExtract.mp3Toscanini Missa Solemnis Extract</A>

If you are at all familiar with the MS then hang on to your armchair! Some of you will be blown away by this bit of pure Toscanini interpretation.

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A Calm Sea and A Prosperous Voyage

[This message has been edited by lvbfanatic (edited 05-11-2006).]

[This message has been edited by lvbfanatic (edited 05-11-2006).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by lvbfanatic:
Quite perchance I happened on an MP3 excerpt taken from a Toscanini recording now available on CD. It appears to have been originally recorded in December of 1940 with the Westminster Choir and the NBC Symphony Orchestra. Below is the link to the MP3 excerpt.

http://www.classicalmusicmobile.com/...iniExtract.mp3Toscanini Missa Solemnis Extract</A>

If you are at all familiar with the MS then hang on to your armchair! Some of you will be blown away by this bit of pure Toscanini interpretation.

You find this scratchy excerpt preferable to the track at the mp3 page?? Perhaps it is Toscanini you appreciate more than Beethoven?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Rod:

You find this scratchy excerpt preferable to the track at the mp3 page?? Perhaps it is Toscanini you appreciate more than Beethoven?

I would rather think that you are biased against Toscanini.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
I would rather think that you are biased against Toscanini.

Not so, my point is that there is nothing unusual in the Toscanini effort, and the sound quality of my track is 1000 times better. Remember this is from the guy who says my excerpt is the worst ever recording of the Missa!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 05-11-2006).]

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Rod:

Not so, my point is that there is nothing unusual in the Toscanini effort, and the sound quality of my track is 1000 times better. Remember this is from the guy who says my excerpt is the worst ever recording of the Missa!

Sound quality is an issue for some people, however for those who appreciate historical recordings and performances I do not think there are many matches to the Toscanini effort. But then, that is MY opinion.