Authentic Instrument mp3s - Missa Solemnis 4th movt

[Peter]

Now available to members at www.kingsbarn.freeserve.co.uk/authentic.html

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Now available to members at www.kingsbarn.freeserve.co.uk/authentic.html

There are a couple of good recordings of the MS with period instruments, this one (which has recently been re-released, one by John Gardiner and another by Herreweghe, and as such are the best recordings you can find of this work which Beethoven described as his greatest.

With regard to tempo and playing Gardiner's is probably the best, but Hanover Band is not far behind and I prefer the warmer accoustic of the Nimbus CD, even if their first trumpet is not always spot on.

Notice in this version the 'Pleni sunt coeli' and 'Osanna in excelsis' are given to the soloists, following the original score, and not the choir as one usually finds. I prefer the soloists version, certainly as performed here with a relatively small orchestra.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Now available to members at www.kingsbarn.freeserve.co.uk/authentic.html

Peter I've tried to email you 3 times but I'm getting bounced each time. If people can't wait 14 seconds for the download to activate they don't really deserve to hear it.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 05-01-2006).]

[lvbfanatic]

Originally posted by Peter:
Now available to members at www.kingsbarn.freeserve.co.uk/authentic.html

Peter... is ther some way I could get a password for this page? Thanks!




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A Calm Sea and A Prosperous Voyage

[Peter]

Originally posted by lvbfanatic:
Peter... is ther some way I could get a password for this page? Thanks!

You need to email either Chris or myself and we'll send it to you. If you missed all these files Rod has shared with us, it is a shame as we've heard some great performances (including this one) which have demonstrated the strengths (and to be fair Rod, occasionally weakness) of HIP.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
You need to email either Chris or myself and we'll send it to you. If you missed all these files Rod has shared with us, it is a shame as we've heard some great performances (including this one) which have demonstrated the strengths (and to be fair Rod, occasionally weakness) of HIP.

Well I personally have witnessed no weakness, only benefits. Only last Saturday I went to the Barbican Hall and witnessed op109 and op111 performed on a pristine Steinway. The lame tempi adopted aside, this piano cannot match the colour and dramatic intensity of the pianos from Beethoven's time. My Mrs agreed, she's a convert now.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:

Well I personally have witnessed no weakness, only benefits. Only last Saturday I went to the Barbican Hall and witnessed op109 and op111 performed on a pristine Steinway. The lame tempi adopted aside, this piano cannot match the colour and dramatic intensity of the pianos from Beethoven's time. My Mrs agreed, she's a convert now.

Well I think you would agree we have experienced a wide range of fortepiano sounds which in itself is an argument that not all piano music should be performed on a Steinway as there are many other excellent 'modern' manufacturers - Bosendorfer, Bluthner and Bechstein to name a few - there is for the first time in 150 years I believe an innovation in piano design - the Stuart piano which uses magnets. I have had the pleasure of playing one of these incredibly expensive instruments and the sound was divine!

Regarding orchestral performances, my doubts arise particularly in relation to the size of orchestra used. Now whilst I admire the Saval recording of the Eroica for its clarity, it is clear from later pefromances in Beethoven's lifetime that so few instruments were not the norm - it depended very much on the circumstances and resources available, not to mention the capabilities of the players.

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 05-02-2006).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well I think you would agree we have experienced a wide range of fortepiano sounds which in itself is an argument that not all piano music should be performed on a Steinway as there are many other excellent 'modern' manufacturers - Bosendorfer, Bluthner and Bechstein to name a few - there is for the first time in 150 years I believe an innovation in piano design - the Stuart piano which uses magnets. I have had the pleasure of playing one of these incredibly expensive instruments and the sound was divine!

Regarding orchestral performances, my doubts arise particularly in relation to the size of orchestra used. Now whilst I admire the Saval recording of the Eroica for its clarity, it is clear from later pefromances in Beethoven's lifetime that so few instruments were not the norm - it depended very much on the circumstances and resources available, not to mention the capabilities of the players.

Well I'm all for new angles on the modern design, but I'm only interested with Beethoven on the piano, and we already have the ideal design for this music.

Concerning the size of orchestra I would generously allow you a few more gut stringed fiddles to satisfy your critisism, which to my mind is not really a critisism considering I have a few HIP recordings of the Eroica with quite a larger band than Saval's. In real life it depends on the venue, but I prefer a smallish orchestra to a gigantic one, venue and accoustics allowing.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 05-02-2006).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:

Well I'm all for new angles on the modern design, but I'm only interested with Beethoven on the piano, and we already have the ideal design for this music.

Concerning the size of orchestra I would generously allow you a few more gut stringed fiddles to satisfy your critisism, which to my mind is not really a critisism considering I have a few HIP recordings of the Eroica with quite a larger band than Saval's. In real life it depends on the venue, but I prefer a smallish orchestra to a gigantic one, venue and accoustics allowing.

Without wishing to reopen the debate of some years back, I think it can be argued that by the 1820s we did not have the ideal design for the piano - we know that as late as 1826 Beethoven was still unhappy with it. From the practical point of view alone it was not satisfactory - unable to hold its tuning for long, frequent breaking of strings and cracking of soundboard and frame. From the musical point of view it suffered from a fairly thin treble and a lack of sustaining power.

I entirely agree that a gigantic Romantic orchestra is inappropiate for 'classical' music.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Without wishing to reopen the debate of some years back, I think it can be argued that by the 1820s we did not have the ideal design for the piano - we know that as late as 1826 Beethoven was still unhappy with it. From the practical point of view alone it was not satisfactory - unable to hold its tuning for long, frequent breaking of strings and cracking of soundboard and frame. From the musical point of view it suffered from a fairly thin treble and a lack of sustaining power.

I entirely agree that a gigantic Romantic orchestra is inappropiate for 'classical' music.

No need to re-open it, I agree there is no absolute 'ideal design' for the piano per se. The old pianos are ideal for Beethoven simply because Beethoven composed bearing their sonic and technical nuances in mind, and not those of the instrument I heard on Saturday, whether the 'old' instruments met his own ideals or not.

Your comments regarding the treble and sustain are your own value judgements, for me these levels are more than adequate for all of Beethoven's compositions. Indeed if the sustain was less on the Steinway I heard on Saturday perhaps his tempi wouldn't have been so lame, especially the first movement of op109, which he performed in the manner of a broad chopin nocturne, rather than the more dynamic affair Beethoven indicates.

But I'd rather discuss the Missa in this chain.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 05-02-2006).]

[Rod]

For quality assurance purposes, has anyone managed to download this file?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
For quality assurance purposes, has anyone managed to download this file?

I managed it, but you're right no one's commented on the excellent music or this fine recording! Just this excerpt from the Missa should be enough to convince anyone of Beethoven's towering musical achievement.

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'Man know thyself'

[lvbfanatic]

Originally posted by Rod:
For quality assurance purposes, has anyone managed to download this file?

This piece is magnificently sculpted and astonishingly well reproduced in the WAV format. It is also brilliantly performed.

I hope that one day the administrators will make available the Gloria and the Agnus Dei of this particular version.

PS... Thanks Chris for helping me to recover the long lost but absolutely essential password.


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A Calm Sea and A Prosperous Voyage

[Chris]

I have just listened to it. Definately an excellent recording. And the piece itself is, of course, one of the greatest ever composed.

[Rod]

Originally posted by lvbfanatic:
This piece is magnificently sculpted and astonishingly well reproduced in the WAV format. It is also brilliantly performed.

I hope that one day the administrators will make available the Gloria and the Agnus Dei of this particular version.

PS... Thanks Chris for helping me to recover the long lost but absolutely essential password.

This is a low-res reproduction (64kbps WMA), so the actual cd is even better. I won't be uploading the other movements so I strongly recommend you buy it, or if you can't find this version, get Gardiner's on the Archiv label. You can't go wrong with these.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin