5th Symphony similar to Battle Symphony?!

[euphony131]

Hi all!!!

It's been awhile! Years since I last posted. Nice to see all the B. fanatics are still at it.

Okay, I was blasting the Battle Symphony (or Wellington's Victory) recently and then listened to the 5th and it stuck me how their structures are alike.

In the 5th's 1st mvt, you get the opening fanfare: ta-ta-ta-TUM. It's like heralding a battle. In the Battle Symphony, it's drums and horns of French and English.

Then in the 5th there's the major key March ("good guys") in the 2nd mvt and a minor key March ("bad guys") in the 3rd mvt, like two opposing armies. Just like you get the French and English national anthems in the Battle Symphony.

Then the battle is joined in the 3rd mvt. when the trio (cellos and basses) comes in to fight the minor key motifs (or what E.M. Forster called the "goblins."). And in the Battle Symphony there's the cannons and guns section.

Finally there's the victory ode in both works -- the huge blasts of C major in the last mvt of the 5th and fugato on God Save the King in the Battle Symphony.

Anyway, curious what others thought about this!

[Peter]

Welcome back Euphony - yes us die hard Beethoven fans are still around!

Personally I've never warmed to Wellingtons Sieg and I think comparisons with the 5th only reveal the great differences rather than similarities. The Sieg was very much a piece of its time and like Tchaikovsky's 1812, not representative of either composer at their best.

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'Man know thyself'

[Ateach Asc]

Anything can be said about LVB's works in relation to each other. Personally, unlike many B fans, I just love the Wellington piece. Especially the part known as the Victory symphony. It's an absolutely delightful set of variations on well known English anthems. But perhaps not sufficiently solemn to suit some tastes.

However, if serious comparisons are to be made between the 5th and some other LVB work, I am intrigued by the uncanny similarity of the opening bars of the 4th movement to the opening bars of the 3rd Piano and Cello sonata. In hearing these segments one after the other, it is almost as if sparks of the creative fires of the 5th symphony had landed on the pages of the 3rd P&C sonata.



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Must it be? It must be!

[Rod]

Originally posted by Ateach Asc:
Anything can be said about LVB's works in relation to each other. Personally, unlike many B fans, I just love the Wellington piece. Especially the part known as the Victory symphony. It's an absolutely delightful set of variations on well known English anthems. But perhaps not sufficiently solemn to suit some tastes.

However, if serious comparisons are to be made between the 5th and some other LVB work, I am intrigued by the uncanny similarity of the opening bars of the 4th movement to the opening bars of the 3rd Piano and Cello sonata. In hearing these segments one after the other, it is almost as if sparks of the creative fires of the 5th symphony had landed on the pages of the 3rd P&C sonata.

I agree with you about Wellington's Victory, I think it's great entertainment. I've got two recordings with real cannon and musket sounds that sound terrifying played loud (Beethoven used drums and rattles which in those days would have made a good effect as the old-style kettle drums sound terrifying when hit hard too!).

I recognise the similar three note figure in the concerto and cello sonata, as you say. Whether there was a conscious connection from Beethoven I can't say

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chris]

Originally posted by Peter:
Personally I've never warmed to Wellingtons Sieg and I think comparisons with the 5th only reveal the great differences rather than similarities. The Sieg was very much a piece of its time and like Tchaikovsky's 1812, not representative of either composer at their best.

This is my feeling as well.

[Joy]

I'm not too keen on it either but hearing it live I must agree with Rod that it was quite entertaining. The drums made for a huge 'battle' sound!! Fun!

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[euphony131]

Originally posted by Peter:
...comparisons with the 5th only reveal the great differences rather than similarities.

Chris and Peter:

But do you guys see at all the structural parallels like the "good" and "bad" marches in the 5th? The "battle" that happens in the 3rd mvt? Or was I way off base? Really curious to know what you musicians think of it.

I just think this idea of a battle, of resisting negative forces and bursting into victory (or the Light) was a constant theme with B.

[lvbfanatic]

Originally posted by euphony131:
Chris and Peter:

But do you guys see at all the structural parallels like the "good" and "bad" marches in the 5th? The "battle" that happens in the 3rd mvt? Or was I way off base? Really curious to know what you musicians think of it.

I just think this idea of a battle, of resisting negative forces and bursting into victory (or the Light) was a constant theme with B.

It seems that hindsight is at work in this particular parallel. Beethoven's 5th was fist unveiled as Op 67 on Dec 22, 1808.

Together with the Seventh Symphony, LVB's Battle of Vittoria was performed for the first time on December 8th and 12th, 1813, in a charity concert for disabled soldiers.

Consequently, it seems very hard to imagine that some kind of battle motif was operational in the 5th symphony. This symphony was also performed for the first time at a concert which introduced the 6th symphony, the Mass in C as well as the Choral Fantasia. Lots of good music.

Needless to say, by that time LVB was an absolute master of the musical forms and structures that had preceded him, including counterpoint and fugue etc... (let the musicians speak up on this)

When the 3rd movement of the 5th symphony changes its initial idyllic flavour, I think that we are much more into terpsichory than belligerance. In other words, the sight of well choreographed dancers, rather than countering armies, is more of what I think I feel here... and for good measure I sometimes imagine LVB hopping, bobbing, and skipping at the conductor's stand as the music paces on.

The opening of that 4th movement is a beautiful description of a most aggressive heavenward thrust... and in hearing that music I have the sensation of riding modern airplanes reaching for the skies and surging through and above the clouds.

I think that the marvel of LVB's music is that we can all bring to it differing images because it speaks to humanity in so many different languages.



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A Calm Sea and A Prosperous Voyage

[Rod]

Originally posted by euphony131:
Chris and Peter:

But do you guys see at all the structural parallels like the "good" and "bad" marches in the 5th? The "battle" that happens in the 3rd mvt? Or was I way off base? Really curious to know what you musicians think of it.

I just think this idea of a battle, of resisting negative forces and bursting into victory (or the Light) was a constant theme with B.

Well as I type I'm listening to the Victory Symphony from the famous recording by Dorati and the LSO (Mercury lable) and I am thoroughly enjoying it. If things were tightened up just a little and if we had some real battlefield sounding drums and brass like they had in B's time (and not the soggy bulbous affairs we have now)it would sound really fantastic. It makes me wonder what the detractors are listening to? Not everything in music has to be a solemn affair, I'm not surprised B had an immediate his with this piece.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 05-08-2006).]

[robert newman]

As a very junior student of Beethoven my view is that Beethoven surely conceived of the 'Battle Symphony' first as a work suitable for mechanical (rather than principally orchestral) performance - i.e. by Maelzel's 'panharmonicon'. This might explain (I suggest) its roughness, it's percussiveness.

I like the work only in certain parts. I also agree that it is very much a product of its time.

[Peter]

Originally posted by euphony131:
Chris and Peter:

But do you guys see at all the structural parallels like the "good" and "bad" marches in the 5th? The "battle" that happens in the 3rd mvt? Or was I way off base? Really curious to know what you musicians think of it.

I just think this idea of a battle, of resisting negative forces and bursting into victory (or the Light) was a constant theme with B.

I don't know if battle is the right word to apply to Beethoven's works, but this journey from dark to light really only occurs in two Beethoven symphonies - the 5th and the 9th.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by robert newman:

As a very junior student of Beethoven my view is that Beethoven surely conceived of the 'Battle Symphony' first as a work suitable for mechanical (rather than principally orchestral) performance - i.e. by Maelzel's 'panharmonicon'. This might explain (I suggest) its roughness, it's percussiveness.

I have often thought about the 'translation' of the music from the Panharmonicon version myself, I would like to hear the original, but remember this is essentially martial music, so one should expect it to be percussive and robust regardless. I'm sure it would not have been difficult for Beethoven smooth out the 'rough' edges if he thought it necessary. The music just requires a 'con brio' performance, but alas there are not so many con brio conductors.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
I have often thought about the 'translation' of the music from the Panharmonicon version myself, I would like to hear the original, but remember this is essentially martial music, so one should expect it to be percussive and robust regardless. I'm sure it would not have been difficult for Beethoven smooth out the 'rough' edges if he thought it necessary. The music just requires a 'con brio' performance, but alas there are not so many con brio conductors.

I think it requires more than a little brio to salvage it - Rod, this is not even 2nd rate Beethoven (if such a thing exists), much of the work was done by Maelzel and yes it served its purpose at the time. The fact is that had it been written by Rossini it would have deservedly long been forgotten.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
I think it requires more than a little brio to salvage it - Rod, this is not even 2nd rate Beethoven (if such a thing exists), much of the work was done by Maelzel and yes it served its purpose at the time. The fact is that had it been written by Rossini it would have deservedly long been forgotten.

Well I disagree with you but there you go. I suggest it has been largely forgotten in any case, I doubt if the average classical music fan is even aware of its existance and it is rarely performed. Certainly I was surprised when I first found out Beethoven had composed such an extravaganza with cannon and musket effects.

But if it deserves to be forgotten as a work of Rossini, as you say, then it doubly deserves to be forgotten as a work of Beethoven. Whilst on this subject there is enough Beethoven in this music for my taste, he even carefully noted every cannon shot and musket volley in the score. And remember the headache this unworthy piece gave Beethoven when he vigorously persued the rights to its ownership with Maelzel!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 05-09-2006).]

[Michael]

Beethoven's piano arrangement of the "Battle Symphony" was played last year on BBC's Beethoven Experience. I switched on in the middle of it and, for a few minutes, didn't know what the hell I was listening to. It sounded like somebody thumping the floor while a piano was playing. I'm not sure if the pianist was providing the percussion effects with his foot or some external apparatus but it was certainly the weirdest thing I have heard in a long while!
I quite enjoy the more familiar Battle Symphony. It's great fun and some years back it was ideal for showing off stereo effects. Nowadays, I'm sure there must be a surround-sound version of it somewhere.

Michael