Beethoven and Birdsong

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
It is easy to admire Beethoven, that in itself is not an act of genius. But to make musical critisism such as that mentioned above... Berlioz is not qualified.

As a master of orchestration, undoubtedly an influential critic and writer on music, and in my opinion a great composer (though lesser than Beethoven naturally) he was qualified to offer an opinion which you can agree or not agree with. If you are saying no one is qualified to criticise Beethoven's work we arrive at a ridiculous situation that certainly does music nor Beethoven any favours.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
If you are saying no one is qualified to criticise Beethoven's work we arrive at a ridiculous situation that certainly does music nor Beethoven any favours.

If Brelioz was worth two cents as a composer I suggest he should have known better. That he didn't says something to me.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[robert newman]

Well Rod, with Berlioz, we are talking of a composer whose works stand in their own right as some of the greatest of his time, quite apart from the fact that he was also a great supporter of Beethoven's music. You have come across nothing greater than Beethoven. I think this is a mistake. But I respect your right to hold such a view. It's just that Beethoven himself would never have thought this way. Does that count ? Maybe not.

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Well Rod, with Berlioz, we are talking of a composer whose works stand in their own right as some of the greatest of his time, quite apart from the fact that he was also a great supporter of Beethoven's music. You have come across nothing greater than Beethoven. I think this is a mistake. But I respect your right to hold such a view. It's just that Beethoven himself would never have thought this way. Does that count ? Maybe not.

It's hard to think of works greater than Beethoven! I can think of those that come close, but none that surpass.

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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
If Brelioz was worth two cents as a composer I suggest he should have known better. That he didn't says something to me.

Robert has provided us here with some of Berlioz's (over the top) eulogies to Beethoven that show we are dealing with someone who had considerable admiration for Beethoven at a time when few in France valued him at all. That he was at odds with the ultra conservative Cherubini who dismissed Beethoven is perhaps also worthy of a little recognition?

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Well Rod, with Berlioz, we are talking of a composer whose works stand in their own right as some of the greatest of his time, quite apart from the fact that he was also a great supporter of Beethoven's music. You have come across nothing greater than Beethoven. I think this is a mistake. But I respect your right to hold such a view. It's just that Beethoven himself would never have thought this way. Does that count ? Maybe not.

Well not quite, nothing greater yes, but I have admitted Handel is in the same league, and is the greatest composer for the stage. Where else have you heard that Robert!!??

Beethoven looked at fellow composers from the point of view of a composer, a tradesman. I think there is a difference between that and the way I view matters. Also i view the picture in light of my experience of Beethoven, Beethoven himself could not have done that.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Robert has provided us here with some of Berlioz's (over the top) eulogies to Beethoven that show we are dealing with someone who had considerable admiration for Beethoven at a time when few in France valued him at all. That he was at odds with the ultra conservative Cherubini who dismissed Beethoven is perhaps also worthy of a little recognition?

Other composer's opinions of Beethoven is ultimately academic, it has no bearing on the quality of their own output. You know I'm not a fan of Berlioz despite him Being a great Beethoven admirer, whereas Handel, a vastly superior composer, of course never heard a single note of Beethoven.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[robert newman]

Rod,

You say Handel was the greatest composer for the stage. That may well be right. Let me not disagree with that. But wasn't it Shakespeare (perhaps the greatest playwright) who said -

'All the world's a stage, and we are but players upon it'

What is truly great in music is not that written for an artificial stage but a real stage - the world in which we live. If the greatness of a thing is measured by its service to others then, I think, musical greatness includes chorales and hymns, since these have touched more hearts and inspired more people than all the quartets and chamber music ever written.

I don't measure Beethoven's greatness by comparing him to others. Beethoven came at a time of great intellectual achievement but his intuition and gifts allowed him to virtually transcend intellectualism. Isn't this part of his musical greatness ? This made him specially important. Beethoven was a musical sign. He and his music remain specially important. His music remains an inspiration and without inspiration we could make the mistake of thinking music died in 1827. It didn't. It lives today - which is why we today can and should appreciate Beethoven. I know I hold him in the greatest regard.

Robert

[Rod]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Rod,

You say Handel was the greatest composer for the stage. That may well be right. Let me not disagree with that. But wasn't it Shakespeare (perhaps the greatest playwright) who said -

'All the world's a stage, and we are but players upon it'

What is truly great in music is not that written for an artificial stage but a real stage - the world in which we live. If the greatness of a thing is measured by its service to others then, I think, musical greatness includes chorales and hymns, since these have touched more hearts and inspired more people than all the quartets and chamber music ever written.

I don't measure Beethoven's greatness by comparing him to others. Beethoven came at a time of great intellectual achievement but his intuition and gifts allowed him to virtually transcend intellectualism. Isn't this part of his musical greatness ? This made him specially important. Beethoven was a musical sign. He and his music remain specially important. His music remains an inspiration and without inspiration we could make the mistake of thinking music died in 1827. It didn't. It lives today - which is why we today can and should appreciate Beethoven. I know I hold him in the greatest regard.

Robert

Ha ha, I can see where you're leading here Robert, there's room for Bach too I suppose! But, as Peter advised you before, my motto is publish and be damned!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin