Listening to Music

[robert newman]

Just a short series of questions -

1. If you hear one of your favourite musical works being played somewhere does it stop you doing what you are doing ?

2. If you are listening to a piece of music with a friend who talks during its performance do you get mad ?

3. Are there some recordings you have of works which are relatively poor in sound quality (perhaps damaged vinyl recordings) which you think can never be bettered by the latest digital releases ?

4. If you are away from music for a few weeks (say on a camping holiday, for example) and then listen to some of your favourite music, do you hear it differently ?

5. Do you think the recommendations of friends have been influential in you deciding which musical works (and which composers) you love ?

Thanks

[Nightklavier]

1. Everytime. In fact, if I just hear a classical piece I'm familiar with either on a commercial, movie, or out in public I'll stop and say in my head (or to someone I'm with) "oh, there's Chopin's Nocturne Op. 9 No. 1" or "ah that's Mozart's Requiem," or "oh come on, Liszt's Liebestraume No. 3 again?"

2. Yes. Someone once commented to me during Beethoven's 5th (first movement) and I wanted to *violently* comment back. But even listening to CD's evokes the same feeling. I have to stop a piece completely if someone tries to talk to me.

3. I don't have any vinyl recordings as I was born after them, but I do have an amateur recording of Liszt's Sonata in B minor from a recital (found it on pianosociety.com). It lacks the digital and refinement of sound, but it's the best (and my favorite) performance of the Sonata and I've heard a lot of different interpretations.

4. Yes and no. Sometimes I can listen to pieces I'm not that familiar with, stop listening for a week and come back to hear them differently. But whenever I hear Mozart's 40th symphony or Beethoven's 17th piano sonata, I am always transported back to a time long ago when I was first listening to those. That's the power of music. When you listen to a piece repeatedly during a portion of your life, stop listening to it for a while, and then listen to it later on, you immediately recall those feelings and memories of that particular time in your life. It happens to me always. But in the short-term like camping, it doesn't really affect the music for some reason.

5. Definitely. I remember someone telling me to give Chopin a try when I was only comfortable with Mozart and Beethoven. That opened all kinds of doors for me, getting me to Schubert, Schumann, Liszt, Rachmaninoff and very recently Alkan(!) And this is only piano works. Although I'm still having trouble getting into the highly dissonant atonal modern stuff. The late Scriabin sonatas, for example, are just not sinking through. I need some friends or any body else to convince me about their worth.

[robert newman]

Thanks NightKlavier,

Honestly, I know it sounds old fashioned but a good record player with a good needle/cartridge (with a good valve amplifier) playing these analogue recordings is so very different a listening experience than the best digital recordings. Valve amplifiers are quite expensive but I know for sure that in places like Japan there are devout collectors of great vinyl recordings who insist on valve amplifiers and who pay great prices for the best ones. The warmth and the resonance that's possible on analogue systems has to be heard to be believed.

I appreciate that technology must move on etc. But personally it seems to me that analogue recordings offer superb reproduction if we have the right players. In many cases we are not just listening to an orchestra but are listening IN an orchestra. It's something difficult to describe in words but I highly recommend it if you ever had the chance to look at it.

Digital recordings can be surgically clean, for sure. I just happen to hugely prefer analogue recordings and analogue systems despite rarely hearing them these days.

Regards

[Michael]

Robert, I am so obsessed with Beethoven that I cannot refrain from pointing out any reference to him that I come across. My family and I were recently watching a very old movie called "By the Light of the Silvery Moon" in which a young boy was practising a Beethoven piece called " Grandmother's Minuet" (WoO No. 10-something or other) and I had to call out: "That's Beethoven again!" to my long-suffering family.
It's a sort of catch-phrase in my family: "You can't get away from Beethoven!"
There are a few pieces I have on vinyl that have never been equalled on CD, but generally I have been pleased with the output on CD. At least they brought out the "Complete Beethoven Edition" which is reasonably complete!
Of course I get mad when people do not listen but I am surrounded by people who are not remotely interested in music, except my family who have absorbed music by osmosis!
If this message appears to be a bit scattered, please excuse me. I am celebrating my grandson's first birthday and whenever I get sloshed, I have an overwhelming desire to go on the internet!!!
I must say that you have certainly livened up this website. I don't agree with a lot of your obvservations, but you are certainly not boring!!!!

Michael

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by robert newman:
Just a short series of questions -

1. If you hear one of your favourite musical works being played somewhere does it stop you doing what you are doing ?

Beyond a doubt

2. If you are listening to a piece of music with a friend who talks during its performance do you get mad ?

No, I just say "Shhh..." No anger, just need to teach manners.

3. Are there some recordings you have of works which are relatively poor in sound quality (perhaps damaged vinyl recordings) which you think can never be bettered by the latest digital releases ?

No, I understand your point which you expanded later, but I don't agree with it. But hey, that's just me.

4. If you are away from music for a few weeks (say on a camping holiday, for example) and then listen to some of your favourite music, do you hear it differently?

It wouldn't happen quite like that, since I take music everywhere I go, but I DO rotate my choices so that it can be a few months between hearings, and yes, they do have a fresh appeal.

5. Do you think the recommendations of friends have been influential in you deciding which musical works (and which composers) you love?

Ordinarily, I am the pioneer, so that would be the exception. However, I am a chamber music junkie, and a friend has been leading me into orchestral music lately, so I am developing my taste along the lines he has presented, probably by default.

Cheers,
Gurn

[This message has been edited by Gurn Blanston (edited 04-30-2006).]

[robert newman]

Hello Michael,

Thanks for your post. I'm a great admirer of Beethoven myself. Thanks for your comments on my posts. Well (I think to myself) if I'm wrong I ain't that boring !

Please have a drink for me in honour of Maestro Bach, oops, er, Beethoven !! (Seriously, best wishes).

Robert

[robert newman]

Thanks Gurn for all the interesting answers.

There are record player needles/cartidges out there that cost over US$1,000 each. These are top of the range but, honest, if you were to hear such a sound system with a top grade turntable and a valve amplifier - let's say some of the vinyl recordings of Beethoven quartets of Quartetto Italiano, I bet you a cheesburger that you would be amazed ! That you would be undigitalised, and that you would be one of those analogue heretics.

Now Rod (whom I met the other day in London) tells me that he can't listen to Handel without it being recordings of original instruments. (If I confessed to him my private passion for analogue/vinyl recordings/valve amplifiers and horribly expensive record players, would he ever talk to me again ?). So you see it's incurable.

A friend of mine (a great lover of Beethoven and Mahler) some years ago drove his girlfriend mad with gold plated speaker cables connected to a hi-fi system that looked like something out of Bletchley Park (the place where codes were cracked during WW2). She had enough and packed her bags. I asked him if his quest for auditory perfection wasn't, well, 'over the top'. He replied that he was now saving up for special headphones, since, from time to time he kept hearing traffic in the background (his home being some miles distant from the nearest road). I think I sympathised with the girlfriend.

Regards



[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 04-30-2006).]

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Just a short series of questions -

1. If you hear one of your favourite musical works being played somewhere does it stop you doing what you are doing ?

2. If you are listening to a piece of music with a friend who talks during its performance do you get mad ?

3. Are there some recordings you have of works which are relatively poor in sound quality (perhaps damaged vinyl recordings) which you think can never be bettered by the latest digital releases ?

4. If you are away from music for a few weeks (say on a camping holiday, for example) and then listen to some of your favourite music, do you hear it differently ?

5. Do you think the recommendations of friends have been influential in you deciding which musical works (and which composers) you love ?

Thanks

1. Absolutely.

2. Irritation is a better word to describe my reaction. If I am playing the work (on piano) then anger is closer!

3. I am not sure that I understand your question--do you refer to a record/cd itself that is damaged or that the original recording was damaged prior to being burned to the CD or recorded to the record?

4. I usually try to listen to music as if I were listening to it for the first time. It is easier if I am away from the piece for awhile, but sometimes I do have the experience as if I had not heard it before. It is very refreshing!

5. In the beginning this was certainly the case, that I was introduced to a number of composers that I like very much because of friends/mentors that introduced me to some of the great composers when I first became interested in music. However, Beethoven needed no help; I found his music instantly enchanting!

[robert newman]

Thanks Sorrano.

I mean (In question 3) do you know of non-digital recordings of music that you prefer to digital ones ?

Thanks

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Thanks NightKlavier,

Honestly, I know it sounds old fashioned but a good record player with a good needle/cartridge (with a good valve amplifier) playing these analogue recordings is so very different a listening experience than the best digital recordings. Valve amplifiers are quite expensive but I know for sure that in places like Japan there are devout collectors of great vinyl recordings who insist on valve amplifiers and who pay great prices for the best ones. The warmth and the resonance that's possible on analogue systems has to be heard to be believed.

I appreciate that technology must move on etc. But personally it seems to me that analogue recordings offer superb reproduction if we have the right players. In many cases we are not just listening to an orchestra but are listening IN an orchestra. It's something difficult to describe in words but I highly recommend it if you ever had the chance to look at it.

Digital recordings can be surgically clean, for sure. I just happen to hugely prefer analogue recordings and analogue systems despite rarely hearing them these days.

Regards

Nothing of course beats a live performance, no matter the recording technology something of the personal communication is always lost.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[atserriotserri]

Hi, Robert

1. Somehow I need to work with music, therefore I'm in control of what I listen to (what's on my ipod or cds I take). I think it's necessary to distinguish a "proper listening" from my use of music at work as a "non prescription drug to avoid stress". Nevertheless, it is curious how a melody may attach to your brain (and be able to "whistle" long passages consistently) even though you would say you've listened superficially to it or you were not listening at all.

2. Yes, and sometimes I regret not having reacted more openly. ("It was worse with my girlfriend" he said while writing with utmost delicacy so she doesn't look at me and detects that I'm writing about her).

3. Years ago, when I was a teenager, I decided to not to buy a record player because I feared ruining my family But I feel what you mention with some old recordings in cd when compared to some of these new-state-of-the-art-5.1-surround-recordings.
I agree and give the greatest consideration on the valve amplifiers issue you mention. For me was a rebirth, particularly when listening those old cds, particularly those sound incredibly different than when played with a digital amp.
4. Not necesarily; but I think is a good exercise letting some music "to have a rest".During more than a year I did not listened any orchestral piece, just sonatas, trios, quartets because I was very interested in deepening in chamber music... I didn't decided "now I will leave it aside", but naturally one thing took another... and at one point I noticed that I was avoiding orchestral music. Afterwards you always will find something new.

5. Not generally, most of my friends are superficially interested in classical music; nevertheless I take reccomendations seriously (this forum is a never-ending source of advice... hmmm.... Medtner....).

Nice post, Robert.

[atserriotserri]

Originally posted by robert newman:
Thanks Gurn for all the interesting answers.

There are record player needles/cartidges out there that cost over US$1,000 each. These are top of the range but, honest, if you were to hear such a sound system with a top grade turntable and a valve amplifier - let's say some of the vinyl recordings of Beethoven quartets of Quartetto Italiano, I bet you a cheesburger that you would be amazed ! That you would be undigitalised, and that you would be one of those analogue heretics.

Now Rod (whom I met the other day in London) tells me that he can't listen to Handel without it being recordings of original instruments. (If I confessed to him my private passion for analogue/vinyl recordings/valve amplifiers and horribly expensive record players, would he ever talk to me again ?). So you see it's incurable.

A friend of mine (a great lover of Beethoven and Mahler) some years ago drove his girlfriend mad with gold plated speaker cables connected to a hi-fi system that looked like something out of Bletchley Park (the place where codes were cracked during WW2). She had enough and packed her bags. I asked him if his quest for auditory perfection wasn't, well, 'over the top'. He replied that he was now saving up for special headphones, since, from time to time he kept hearing traffic in the background (his home being some miles distant from the nearest road). I think I sympathised with the girlfriend.

Regards

[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 04-30-2006).]

The guy who came to install my system told my girlfriend (who felt she was living with a freak because I spent as sum she considered bizarre in just 6 items: valve amp, cd player, speakers and their cables) enough stories of people changing the electrical installation of their houses to have a separated phase for the sound system to have more dynamics, people ordering specially manufactured gold cables, people spending indecent amounts of money in record players, people having records in one room and another room just for the sound system and a sofa... That she felt first stunned, and then relaxed.

[Rod]

Originally posted by robert newman:


Now Rod (whom I met the other day in London) tells me that he can't listen to Handel without it being recordings of original instruments. (If I confessed to him my private passion for analogue/vinyl recordings/valve amplifiers and horribly expensive record players, would he ever talk to me again ?). So you see it's incurable.

While I accept the quality of analogue sound (at least with the best equipment) there are certain fundamental benefits with the CD format for classical music. Firstly, considering opera recordings can sometimes take up three or four CD, imagine how many vinyl disks this would amount to, and consider how much time you would spend changing the vinyl disks. Also from my experience I think there is a limited recording level to vinyl compared to digital. But I recommend whatever hifi you have, buy good cables - this can really transform the sound.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[robert newman]

Thanks. Well, here in England there are still quite a few classical vinyl records around and I can't resist buying them when I see them at a fair or a jumble sale, for example. The problem is they are quite heavy, so the most you can realistically carry is about 15 or so. There are collectors of Beethoven here who will wake at 3 am to catch car boot sales in London that start at dawn. And, from time to time, libraries here make ridiculous sales of vinyl records (though sometimes they are heavily scrached). I recently bought a complete set of the muti volumed Oxford History of Music, plus the scores of 'Le Nozze di Figaro' and 'Don Giovanni', together with a Thematic Catalogue of Schubert (Deutsch) and a book on Verdi operas. But my greatest treasure bought for virtually nothing some years ago is the single volumed Thematic Catalogue of JS Bach (Schmeider).

The collecting of vinyl records has sometimes caused new homes to be built ! In one case that I know of, the person has a long room with two speakers near one end and a pool of oil some metres wide between him and them. There is a man not far from me who collects vinyl records of steam train noises. And another who has recordings of every bird song in the North American continent.

I am told by experts that vinyl record collections should be recorded on analogue reel to reel tape recorders and stored away.
In this way the records are never played.

My earliest vinyl recording is one from (I think) 1907 - the young violinist Jascha Heifetz.

There are mono recordings on vinyl which are truly amazingly clear. One of the most remarkable is a recording made by the great pianist Dinu Lipatti of the Grieg Concerto. The orchestra is tinny and of rather poor sound quality. But the cadenza in the first movement jumps out and is near miraculous in its execution.

Honestly, if you were to hear, say, a string serenade or a string quartet from vinyl record through a good record player that has a good valve amplifier and needle, I doubt if the CD market would like to know your verdict.

Thanks for all the points.

R

[Michael]

Originally posted by robert newman:
There are record player needles/cartidges out there that cost over US$1,000 each. These are top of the range but, honest, if you were to hear such a sound system with a top grade turntable and a valve amplifier - let's say some of the vinyl recordings of Beethoven quartets of Quartetto Italiano, I bet you a cheesburger that you would be amazed ! That you would be undigitalised, and that you would be one of those analogue heretics.


[]

I am always very interested in how the members of this forum actually listen to music (and by this I mean recorded music).
My interest in classical music started in 1967 and in the following 20 years I collected a roomful of vinyl. Over the years, the pop music (Beatles, etc) stood up very well to wear and tear but the classical records - mostly piano sonatas and string quartets - developed the old pan-frying background, no matter what efforts I took to keep them clean.
So, in 1987 I bought my first CD player and started all over again. It took me about another ten years to get a CD player I really liked - the early machines were very poor - but today I am quite happy with my setup. It is not even middle of the range and is getting long in the tooth, but it sounds musical to me.
I have come to the conclusion that there is nothing intrinsically wrong with digital sound. The problem lies with the cloth-eared studio engineers who try to make everything sound over-bright and, of course, cheap equipment.
I have been transferring some of my own old vinyl recordings to CD and have been very pleased with the results. I don't do it via the computer but directly from the turntable to Minidisc (which has fantastic editing features) and then to CD. The last step is digital to digital so any loss is negligible.
I don't use any noise reduction filters or whatever as I don't mind a tiny amount of background noise. I pour a small amount of water on the vinyl disc while transferring (I can hear the shocked groans from the vinyl brigade!) and the stylus is kept wet and tracking improves considerably.
Like Rod, I would never go back to vinyl as the problems and maintenance are too much. I know how good vinyl can sound but I believe today's dedicated CD players can equal or surpass it. I do concede that the sound of vinyl is basically different to CD - in other words, analogue and digital will never sound alike, but one is not necessarily superior to the other.

Michael