Bach's Impact on 18th Century Music

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Dear Atserriotserri,

I thought Agnes Selby was joking when she first mentioned this. But it seems this Bach thing is no joke.

Personally, I think it's complete nonsense.

That such ideas should have arisen only within the last few years does not surprise me.

That Anna Magdelena BACH could have composed these works and could also have written them down, all the time taking care of her children, well, who must she have been - BACH ???

Seriously, it will be interesting to see the sort of arguments and evidence that Charles Darwin University come up with. (I think that this deserves a fair hearing but on an issue such a this the man needs to produce more than handwriting evidence).

Regards

I have no doubt it won't be long before you subscribe to this one as well. You see Robert one of the many problems with your theory is your inconsistency. When you first mentioned this Luchesi subject you stated quite emphatically that you thought many of Taboga's claims were wrong! So I've no doubt a few years from now you'll be championing Anna Magdalena, the forgotten genius!

I have lost count of the times you say 'I suggest' - you then go on to claim your own suggestion is a fact! As I have said there is no point in constantly repeating your arguments which as administrator of this forum I want to make quite plain I do not agree with. I believe from the responses of members that is representative of the consensus. My view is that Mozart and Haydn DID NOT HAVE WORKS deliberately written for them by Luchesi, Kraus, Myslivecek or anyone else.

This Luchesi argument has been around now for over 12 years since Taboga published his book, yet no serious academics believe a word of it. You have not convinced them of your 'facts'. Perhaps you can enlighten us with some of the responses you have received from Bonn, Salzburg and Vienna? Can you produce the names and credentials of these scholars who support your views?

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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:

If I'm not mistaken Mr Zaslaw will shortly share his expertise with you too - in the arrival of the new edition of Koechel. It's this which has already been refered to here.

Incidentally, Zaslaw himself has written that at present Koechel holds over 20 works that are not Mozart's in its main section.

Regards

Yes and are you expecting the Jupiter, Prague, Paris, Linz symphonies, The Marriage of Figaro and Don Giovani to be amongst these works?

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'Man know thyself'

[robert newman]

I predict that pilgrimages to Salzburg will become ever more pious.

Why, they even have a special room for icons and religious images at Mozart's birthplace !
Whether the statue weeps for the faithful has not yet been determined. I was so busy crying I confess I never noticed.

[robert newman]

Peter,

No, I said that I think the Anna Magdelena theory sounds like nonsense to me.

You also write -

This Luchesi argument has been around now for over 12 years since Taboga published his book, yet no serious academics believe a word of it. You have not convinced them of your 'facts'. Perhaps you can enlighten us with some of the responses you have received from Bonn, Salzburg and Vienna? Can you produce the names and credentials of these scholars who support your views?

In reply -

No, it's being going on for as long as the Mozart bandwaqgon has been rolling. The earliest recorded case is Mozart 'writing a piano concerto at Salzburg' while still an infant - a 'fact' repeated ad nauseum in all the biographies and starting with agreement between Leopold Mozart and the court trumpeter Schachtner. It survived criticism from the musicians in Vienna (who wickedly accused operas of Mozart as having been written by Leopold and others). It carried on with the Requiem, which was wickedly challenged in its authenticity despite having the great man's own signature.

Indeed, such a nerve, that jealous people should have ever have said such things !!! They will be telling us next that Leopold had a hand in his early symphonies. Whatever next ???

You ask if I can produce the names and credentials of those who support the views of Mr Taboga. No - I don't work for Mr Taboa. He simply happens to be a brilliant and original researcher whose archival research has been largely ignored.

As for the same question of me - I differ from Mr Taboga in many respects but share with him in a great many also.

If there is an issue on which researchers disagree with me, I remain ready to share with them and to be corrected by them at any time. I've frequently made errors and will no doubt always do so. As to who agrees with me depends on the issue we are discussing.

Best regards

Robert


[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 04-28-2006).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by robert newman:


Well Rod, I respect your opinion, that these are trios by the young Beethoven. You know the arguments against that, of course. I think they are trios that came to Bonn and were somehow part of the Bonn archives, written in a 'Mozartean' style for the simple reason that they were always intended for Mozart in Vienna, but that for reasons I don't know he used only two or three.

On balance (and having recently heard quite a bit of this Mysliveck I think that he rather than Kozeluch) has much more to do with the Mozart violin works than may be appreciated at this time. But that's my personal view - though I agree that it relegates Luchesi to the role of a musical agent of sorts for those particular works.

Rgds

Well, in my opinion they are certainly not Luchesi's, Ries got it all wrong, this is Beethoven's work. If it is correct that he (Beethoven) was using Mozartian structures for the music then Beethoven or someone close to him in Bonn must have been aware of M's Music at the time. But that is a secondary issue. I restate the concerto, the trio, the quartets and the cantatas are Beethoven's - if you persue this Beethoven angle in your book be careful. Concerning the concerto score, which we were discussing, apparently there is a note on it in what appears to be Beethoven's hand, for what it's worth. I suggest you concentrate on Mozart and Haydn with you research?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 04-28-2006).]

[robert newman]

Thanks for the advice. I AM concentrating on Haydn and Mozart - both of who were being supplied music through the Kapellmeister at Bonn. That is the connection Rod. In my view these piano quartets are definitely not by Luchesi. I respect your view that these same works are by Beethoven. Sorry, but I disagree.

Incidentally, I listened to the CD of the piano quartets last night. They are really very nice. WoO36 No.3 is in my view the best of the three and WoO36 No.2 the weakest.

The Mozartean content of these works is indisputable despite me thinking their creation may have involved the input of more than one person. That Beethoven knew these piano quartets seems to me extremely likely.

R

[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 04-28-2006).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by robert newman:
Thanks for the advice. I AM concentrating on Haydn and Mozart - both of who were being supplied music through the Kapellmeister at Bonn. That is the connection Rod. In my view these piano quartets are definitely not by Luchesi. I respect your view that these same works are by Beethoven. Sorry, but I disagree.

Incidentally, I listened to the CD of the piano quartets last night. They are really very nice. WoO36 No.3 is in my view the best of the three and WoO36 No.2 the weakest.

The Mozartean content of these works is indisputable despite me thinking their creation may have involved the input of more than one person. That Beethoven knew these piano quartets seems to me extremely likely.

R

[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 04-28-2006).]

Fair enough Rob, we'll have to agree to disagree, but I will add that the second quartet has a somewhat lighter mood/gravity than the others, and this was a typical trait of Beethoven's when he published sets of three compositions.

I agree the CD is very good, although the intonation of the strings could be better. The music is very entertaining and worthy of Beethoven for sure.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 04-28-2006).]

[WoO]

Giorgio Taboga, born in Venice, Italy, 1933

Studied Economics at Bocconi University, Milan

So he is no trained musicologist, and does not appear to have a formal background in historical studies

Of course one can do without...

Published:

- Andrea Luchesi e la cappella di Bonn (1993)

- Andrea Luchesi. L'ora della verità (1994)

- L'assassinio di Mozart (1997)

But the problem with Mr.Taboga is that he presents theories as established FACTS

Since what he claims is so huge, he should provide at least as much evidence (factual and convincing)

Sorry, but Mr.Taboga, despite his efforts, remains, in this field, an amateur.

Who else could seriously write the following lines if not a bemusing amateur?

"Therefore we should consider the Wiener Klassik as a whole italian phenomenon. The famous idiot Haydn didn't compose any symphony, and those which are still

registered in his name are Sammartini's and Luchesi's; the high masses and the oratori aren't his as well. We have discovered seventy works which aren't his

and this witnesses that Mozart is still a common name. His best symphonies have to be ascribed to Luchesi; Beethoven could become a genius of music thanks to

the long and accurate teaching he received in Bonn from the Kapellmeister Andrea Luchesi."
http://itis.volta.alessandria.it/epi...4/ep4tabog.htm

Regards,
WoO

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:
Thanks for the advice. I AM concentrating on Haydn and Mozart - both of who were being supplied music through the Kapellmeister at Bonn. That is the connection Rod. In my view these piano quartets are definitely not by Luchesi.

Haydn and Mozart were not being supplied music to pass off as their own by Luchesi.
here we have yet another of your inconsistencies regarding the Beethoven quartets as in previous discussions you were telling us they were by Luchesi, now you say they are by Myselevicek. Perhaps next you might get it right and arrive at Beethoven.

Secondly, in reference to lack of Mozart works in the inventory, you know only a fraction of the works from this archive are at Modena, the majority being dispersed in Vienna and elsewhere. You also know that Neefe did not include every genre, chamber music was excluded for example.

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'Man know thyself'

[robert newman]

You say that Luchesi was not supplying Haydn and Mozart with works that they passed off as being their own.

Would you like to discuss Mozart's symphonies ? How about Haydn's symphonies ? Or Hadyn's masses ? Manuscripts of many of the above are still at Estense Library in Modena, Italy, having been transported there from Bonn and in many cases still bearing reference numbers of the Bonn Inventory of 1784. These works have come from Bonn (despite this fact being denied by the few conservative scholars who have studied them) and the fact they are attributed to Haydn and Mozart begs the question why.

I always find it interesting that critics say 'you have no hard evidence'. Ask them to give credit to the documentary evidence at Modena and, suddenly, things change. It has been the painstaking work of Giorgio Taboga (and the fact that he has so freely written about these matters) that makes it possible for you to criticise one of his many condensed comments on Haydn and Mozart. I think there is a need for fairness here - for credit to be given where it is due.

I do not agree with Mr Taboga in everything he says. In fact, I take a different line on issues such as the role of the Jesuit Order. But as to the documentary evidence, we are completely at one.

The facts themselves are clear enough. It's simply a case of us accomodating ourselves to these same facts.

Robert

[robert newman]

Dear Rod,

Yes, these quartets are very interesting works. What's truly extraordinary about them is their robustness - this so typical of Beethoven, for sure. Their indisputable connection with works by Mozart seems to settle the question as far as many Beethoven admirers is concerned. But I still take the view that these are works of another composer which were held for some reason at Bonn and which Beethoven himself was undoubtedly familiar with.

In saying that their true composer was Myslevicek I am emphasising the Mozartean similarities (whereas, of course, you tend to emphasise their Beethovenesque similarities). That they are not by Luchesi I am quite sure (though, I must say, I've never heard any quartets of Luchesi from the 1780's despite him having written some).

They are very mysterious works, for sure and they certainly prove a Bonn connection with Mozart. That, to me, is the most important thing. But I will not be dogmatic on their attribution other than to say they are clearly not by Mozart. We have no record of Beethoven claiming them to be his. I would be happy to leave it at that since we may eventually find a solution without enforcing one. They are very fine works, for sure.

Rod, have you possibly heard the piano quartet that up until 1910 was attributed to Mozart himself ? It was known as C22.01 in the Koechel list. I haven't heard it myself. What's its new Beethoven reference ? Such a thing makes me think that it, plus these 3 from Bonn, plus two of 'Mozart's' own may together have been a set of 6 piano quartets written by someone in Mozartean style who for reasons still to be established sent them to Bonn.

(The flute works are of no real consequence - perhaps you agree ?).

Robert

[Rod]

Originally posted by robert newman:


Rod, have you possibly heard the piano quartet that up until 1910 was attributed to Mozart himself ? It was known as C22.01 in the Koechel list. I haven't heard it myself. What's its new Beethoven reference ? Such a thing makes me think that it, plus these 3 from Bonn, plus two of 'Mozart's' own may together have been a set of 6 piano quartets written by someone in Mozartean style who for reasons still to be established sent them to Bonn.

(The flute works are of no real consequence - perhaps you agree ?).

Robert

I haven't heard this C22, i'm unaware of any other piano quartet attributed to Beethoven other than op16 and WoO36. I don't think is has a Beethoven reference unless it's some Anh I'm unaware of.

Regarding spurious flute works, I have recordings of a sonata with piano and a flute trio which have been attributed to B but are not his I'm pretty certain. These are on the other disk not the one which I gave you, which has WoO37. Concerning this last piece, as far as I am aware Beethoven dedicated it to the von Westerholt-Gysenberg family (the father played bassoon, the son the flute and the daughter, B's pupil, the piano). Can you explain why you see a mystery about WoO37?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[robert newman]

Hi Rod,

There are 3 piano quartets on the disc you lent to me. One in C Major, one in E Flat, and one in D. They are labelled WoO36 no. 3, WoO36 No.1, and WoO36 No.2 respecively.

The one in C Major is very fine. The one in E Flat is probably by the same composer but I wouldn't swear to it. The one in D is between the two.

I describe these works as mysterious for their undeniable relationship to Mozart's music and because of their undeniable similarity to Beethoven despite neither of these two composers being their true composer. Well, at least, that's my opinion of them.

That these manuscripts come from Bonn is remarkable in itself. Would you put a date on them of, say, between 1780 and 1784 ?

It's strange that in catalogue C53.1 at Modena (which was kept up to date by Luchesi from 1785 till the date when the chapel closed in 1792) we find I think 3 works attributed to Beethoven, none of them these piano quartets. And there is a letter in Vienna in which it's said that Beethoven had only written 3 works in Bonn before his arrival in Vienna. One of these was a fugue and if I'm not mistaken the catalogue C53.1 has incipits for all 3 of these pieces.

Robert




[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 04-28-2006).]

[Rod]

Robert,

In the WoO36 cd case I gave you was also a disk with flute music, including WoO37, unless you've lost it already!? It was WoO37 I was discussing above, I don't want to mention 36 again as we've said all that can be said.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 04-28-2006).]

[Cetto von Cronstorff]

Originally posted by robert newman:
Incidentally, Zaslaw himself has written that at present Koechel holds over 20 works that are not Mozart's in its main section.

And what about the ten other misattributed works? You should really hurry up before it is too late.