Bach's Impact on 18th Century Music

[robert newman]

Well, we're close to agreement after all. The decisive influence on Beethoven in Bonn was his exposure to the works of JS Bach. I simply want you to accept that in addition to this he would have received musical tuition during the 10 years or so he was there from the principal teacher of the Bonn Kapelle, Luchesi.

As to whether Luchesi was one of the greatest musicians of the 18th century, I have heard various works of his (most of these, for sure, from around 1770/1) including some 7 church works, a keyboard concerto and two symphonies.

Luchesi is a highly sophisticated composer and I recommend you hear some of his music. When you consider what survives of his that is indisputably his (many works today attributed falsely to others) was written long before Mozart's maturity and at a time of great change within the European musical scene you will, I'm sure, rate him very highly also. The works of Sammartini, Luchesi and others are undoubtedly the true origin of the 1st Viennese school, this later supplemented by others from Eastern Europe who had been greatly influenced by Italian theory.

Regards

[atserriotserri]

Robert, are you involved in this too?
A researcher from Darwin, Australia, says he believes that many works attributed to Johann Sebastian Bach were actually written by the composer's second wife.
His second wife was a copyist, but may also have composed many of his pieces.
Martin Jarvis, a professor at Charles Darwin University School of Music, has been studying Bach's work for more than 30 years.

Bach's second wife, Anna Magdalena Bach, is traditionally believed to have been a copyist for Bach and her handwriting is known from many of his original scores.

But Jarvis believes she may actually have written some of the best-loved pieces herself, including Six Cello Suites, some of the Goldberg Variations, and the first prelude of the Well-tempered Clavier Book I.

Jarvis says it's known that Anna Magdalena was a talented musician and a student of Bach's. Born in 1701, she married him in 1721, 17 months after the death of his first wife. She bore him 13 children, seven of whom died in infancy.

"I found Anna Magdalena's handwriting in places where it shouldn't have been," he told the Australian Broadcasting Corp. "In other words, assuming that the idea that it's her handwriting is correct, then it's in places where we really shouldn't be finding it."

Jarvis used forensic techniques to analyze the handwriting, saying the notations in her hand indicate she was working on a draft composition. Many works have no "original" score in Bach's hand.

He also studied the structure of the music before coming up with his theory. The British-born professor said he has felt there was something different about the Cello Suites since he studied them at the Royal Academy of Music in London.

"It doesn't sound musically mature. It sounds like an exercise, and you have to work incredibly hard to make it sound like a piece of music," he said.

He put forward the theory that the young woman wrote them when she was a music student. A woman's work as a composer would never have been acknowledged in Bach's time, he said.

Jarvis presented his ideas at an international symposium in London last week and will publish them in a doctorate paper later this year.

Bach scholars did not immediately dismiss Jarvis's claims. Yo Tomita, a Bach scholar based at Queen's University in Belfast, said the findings were "highly important." Others were more skeptical and said the theory could never be proven.

Bach, who lived from 1685 to 1750, was a prolific composer of more than 1,100 works, and is regarded as a great master of Baroque music.

[atserriotserri]

Sorry, the source of the previous article is CBC arts( http://www.cbc.ca/story/arts/nationa...bach-wife.html ).

[robert newman]

Dear Atserriotserri,

I thought Agnes Selby was joking when she first mentioned this. But it seems this Bach thing is no joke.

Personally, I think it's complete nonsense.

That such ideas should have arisen only within the last few years does not surprise me.

That Anna Magdelena BACH could have composed these works and could also have written them down, all the time taking care of her children, well, who must she have been - BACH ???

Seriously, it will be interesting to see the sort of arguments and evidence that Charles Darwin University come up with. (I think that this deserves a fair hearing but on an issue such a this the man needs to produce more than handwriting evidence).

Regards

[Rod]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Well, we're close to agreement after all. The decisive influence on Beethoven in Bonn was his exposure to the works of JS Bach.

I wouldn't quite say Bach was the decisive influence on the development of Beethoven's musical style if this is your meaning. Playing fugue exercises is one thing, but the more advanced works produced by Beethoven in Bonn could hardly be described as Bachian. Regardless Beethoven was looking to Mozart as his benchmark by his mid-teens and beyond.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Well, we're close to agreement after all. The decisive influence on Beethoven in Bonn was his exposure to the works of JS Bach. I simply want you to accept that in addition to this he would have received musical tuition during the 10 years or so he was there from the principal teacher of the Bonn Kapelle, Luchesi.

As to whether Luchesi was one of the greatest musicians of the 18th century, I have heard various works of his (most of these, for sure, from around 1770/1) including some 7 church works, a keyboard concerto and two symphonies.

Luchesi is a highly sophisticated composer and I recommend you hear some of his music. When you consider what survives of his that is indisputably his (many works today attributed falsely to others) was written long before Mozart's maturity and at a time of great change within the European musical scene you will, I'm sure, rate him very highly also. The works of Sammartini, Luchesi and others are undoubtedly the true origin of the 1st Viennese school, this later supplemented by others from Eastern Europe who had been greatly influenced by Italian theory.

Regards

We are far from overall agreement as I do not accept your claims on Haydn and Mozart's symphonies, operas or Beethoven's cantatas!

It isn't an issue of the greatest importance to me, but until you provide proof that Luchesi taught Beethoven at Bonn, it remains an assumption. We do now agree that his introduction to Bach by Neefe was of prime importance and I hope you agree that Beethoven probably had not studied Fux at Bonn, which to my mind is strange, as it was considered the most important theoretical treatise and standard practice for composition students. Both Neefe and Luchesi had obviouly not provided this in their instruction. My whole problem with Luchesi as teacher is if he was such a great composer and if Beethoven had studied with him for years at Bonn, why did he still need the help of Haydn, Schenk and Albrechtsberger in Vienna, all of them lesser men in your estimation?

Regarding Luchesi's music, I readily admit I am not familiar with it but I have always accepted your estimation of its worth. However there are many other fine composers such as C.P.E.Bach, Kraus, Vanhal, Cannabich, Monn, Stamitz etc.. whose music is equally neglected. It wasn't so in their day, so the idea of a conspiracy to establish a Viennese school of just 3 composers was rather prophetic because even Haydn and Mozart fell into comparative neglect until the 20th century. Indeed much of Haydn's music and even Beethoven's is Still neglected!


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'Man know thyself'

[robert newman]

I'm interested by your idea that Beethoven was looking to Mozart by his mid-teens. That suggests around 1785, yes ? How is it that not a single work by Mozart is mentioned as being at Bonn during the Inventory made there in 1784 ?

Rgds

[robert newman]

Peter, I think one reason the works of Beethoven and Mozart fell in to relative decline during the 19th century was the rise of nationalistic schools of music, the collapse of the Holy Roman Empire, and no doubt the end of feudal patronage.

Of all the periods of western music from the time of, say, Palestrina to the present time I think that for the period immediately after Bach (i.e. say between 1750 and 1775) is perhaps the least well known to the music-listening public.

I take your point entirely that many works by Beethoven are still quite neglected and have heard perhaps only three quarters of his works myself. Luchesi's music definitely makes demands on a listener, most of it coming from the period just before his arrival in Bonn. I like it and hear a great deal that must have been very influential in Germany. It's a gentle sort of sophistication. In some ways he can (symphonically) sound something like early Schubert.

His church music is neat and orderly, sometimes very pretty etc. But I simply haven't heard enough of his works to recognise him, Luchesi. He is very interested in different combinations of instruments. He is certainly one of those innovators and I would like others to hear him, even music from that early date. (I'll bring some of his music tomorow when I meet Rod in London). We know one of the first things he did in Bonn was to bring Italian language teachers to the chapel and also he brought with him at least 3 singers. The Bonn post was prestigious and in 1771 his arrival was noted in Italy.

It is so unfortunate that at this time we still have no real appreciation of what Taboga has been presenting on the archives now at Modena. Still, at least these issues are now in the public domain.

Regards



[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 04-26-2006).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by robert newman:

I'm interested by your idea that Beethoven was looking to Mozart by his mid-teens. That suggests around 1785, yes ? How is it that not a single work by Mozart is mentioned as being at Bonn during the Inventory made there in 1784 ?

Rgds

You think Mozart was a mystery figure to Beethoven at the time of his first visit to Vienna?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[robert newman]

Rod, I think 1784 was a turning point in Mozart's public profile in many ways. If Mozart was an important model for Beethoven in Bonn it's curious that we find no evidence for it. But it's true also that by the time he left Bonn it was Mozart who Beethoven was urged to emulate. (I know for sure that Taboga has arguments that some 'Mozart' works were performed at Bonn and it's certain that various works were acccepted in to the Bonn archives in Mozart's name from 1785 onwards).

Yes, I've always thought it strange that Beethoven seems not to spoken of Mozart or even to have given us much of their supposed meeting. Especially in view of the way he was being spoken of by Beethoven's early patrons.


Regards

[Rod]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Rod, I think 1784 was a turning point in Mozart's public profile in many ways. If Mozart was an important model for Beethoven in Bonn it's curious that we find no evidence for it. But it's true also that by the time he left Bonn it was Mozart who Beethoven was urged to emulate. (I know for sure that Taboga has arguments that some 'Mozart' works were performed at Bonn and it's certain that various works were acccepted in to the Bonn archives in Mozart's name from 1785 onwards).

Yes, I've always thought it strange that Beethoven seems not to spoken of Mozart or even to have given us much of their supposed meeting. Especially in view of the way he was being spoken of by Beethoven's early patrons.


Regards

Robert, from my sources there is evidence of a strong influence of Mozartian models on Beethoven's piano quartets WoO36, music that was a milestone on Beethoven's musical development as far as we are currently aware, yet music you do not even regard as Beethoven's.

I can go into this further, but considering your opinion's about the ownership of WoO36 I am not sure what use this information would be to you.

I am not concerned about what records there are of what Mozart material there was available in Bonn at the time.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[ASSelby]

Yes, I've always thought it strange that Beethoven seems not to spoken of Mozart or even to have given us much of their supposed meeting. Especially in view of the way he was being spoken of by Beethoven's early patrons.

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Please read Schindler's "Beethoven As I knew
Him" to correct this opinion.

Agnes.


Regards

[/B][/QUOTE]

[robert newman]

There's a long list of works which have been at one time attributed to Mozart, then to Beethoven, for sure. But an added problem is of course the Luchesi factor, in which works intended for Mozart exist in Bonn though today floating between WoO and Anh. The D Major Trio for piano, violin, and cello (which Saint Fox wished to have attributed to Beethoven) is today rubricated amongst 'doubtful/spurious' works as Anh.3. The 'Jena' Symphony (once attributed to Beethoven) and still wrongly to Freidrich Witt. Then 6 quartets before called 'Mozart's', then 'Beethoven's' and today without paternity. To say the very least, it's amazing that the Kapellmeister has at no time ever been publicly acknowledged to be a candidate for deciding who the true composer of all these works really is.

(I note today that two contemporary sources while talking of Mozart's output fail to credit him with either 'Le Nozze di Figaro' or 'Don Giovanni'- Forkel and Schlichtegroll)

Interestingly, Taboga has written -

'Beethoven refused to accept the role of a figurehead for Luchesi's productions as a 'new Mozart' or as 'Haydn's pupil' - COMPOSERS WHOSE ARTISTIC LIMITATIONS WERE WELL KNOWN TO HIM'.

(Considered in this way, it cannot be denied that the young Beethoven came close to being groomed for just such 'roles').

He also writes -

'It also fell to him (Beethoven) to end up as a GUILTLESS holder of Andrea Luchesi's works if we begin with the 3 quartets WoO36, the trio WoO37, the concerto WoO4 and the Hess 13 serenade, which Austrian/German musicology has obstinately persisted to head under one name, notwithstanding Ferdinand Reis's refusal to accept as authentic WoO36 (1832)....etc.'

Regards

[robert newman]

Dear Agnes,

I can give you the titles of books forever. What I cannot seem to get from you are specific quotes from or exact references.

p.s. Any chance of answering the question about Constanze Mozart and Maximilian Stadler reference the state of completion of the Requiem at the time of Mozart's death, or will this be yet another straightforward 'true' or 'false' that you leave readers in limbo about ?

Robert

[ASSelby]

Absolutely, Robert.
The answers to all your Requiem questions are in my book,
"Constanze, Mozart's Beloved" together
with appropriate references.

The book, as I mentioned before, is available on Amazon or Mozarteum Bookshop.

Agnes.