Bach's Impact on 18th Century Music

[ASSelby]

Robert,

I am still puzzled by why Luchesi did not
publish all the works he supplied
Haydn and Mozart with, under his own name?

PLEASE ANSWER THIS SIMPLE QUESTION.
ONE SENTENCE WILL DO.

As for the Requiem, you have made up
a completely fictional scenario but
seeing that the newest hot news is that
Bach's cello sonatas were composed by
his second wife, Anna Magdalena, I will
leave you in peace to your imagination.

Agnes.

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by robert newman:
This is the same Albrechtsberger who was a fellow Jesuit student at the same school as that most interesting Jesuit composer Michael Haydn of Salzburg (friend of course of the Mozart’s and supplier to them of the falsely attributed ‘Mozart’s Symphony No. 37’ with much else still to this day falsely attributed to Mozart). This is the same Jesuit Albrechtsberger whose work on composition was published in English by the Novello’s (those huge admirers of Mozart). And the same Albrechtsberger whose fugues so fascinated the Jesuit composer Joseph Martin Kraus. Since Albrechtsberger is described as being ‘one of the closest friends of the Mozart family’ and since Haydn was floundering (yet again) best call for Herr Albrechtsberger.

Dear Robert;

Joseph Martin Kraus was trained by both Jesuits and non-Jesuits!!


Hofrat

[robert newman]

Dear Agnes,

So nice to hear from you !

You want a single sentence from me in reply to the following question -

Q 'I am still puzzled by why Luchesi did not
publish all the works he supplied
Haydn and Mozart with, under his own name'?

A. 'Luchesi was not a publisher and his first submissions were from Italy to Esterhazy, the same place where G Sammartini had been supplying dozens of symphonies for hard cash - this encouraged by Count Durazzo and leading, eventually, to Mozart's reputation being 'cultivated' in the same way from its earliest stages to the very end of his life'

I'm interested in you saying my scenario for 'Mozart's Requiem' is a completely fictional one. That's really rich, coming from somebody who knows that fiction is the entire official story of this bogus piece. I would like you to answer me a single question in one sentence also -

Q. Is it true or false that Constanze Mozart and Abbe Maximilian Stadler BOTH claimed the Requiem was sufficiently completed at the time of Mozart's death that any competent copyist could have completed it' ?

As for this moonshine that Anna Magdelena Bach is the true composer of the Bach Cello Sonatas I look forward to your evidence in due course. This will be just as interesting as your answer on the 'Mozart' Requiem.

Robert



[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 04-26-2006).]

[robert newman]

Dear Hofrat,

I can only reply with that infamous maxim of the Jesuits, 'Give me a boy for six years, and he is mine for life'.

Bear in mind too, of course, that from 1773 (at which time Kraus was 17 years old) he had no choice but to accept the presence of others in teaching positions wherever he studied. So, although I agree with you, the influence was such that he remained for the rest of his life, faithful to the Jesuits.

Regards

[ASSelby]

Dear Robert,

Are you saying that because Luchesi was not a publisher, he could not find a publisher to publish his masterpieces?
There were many publishers around and surely you are not suggesting that Mozart was somehow fed Luchesi's material through the house of Esterhazy?

As for the Requiem, it is all explained in my book, please read it, I will not repeat myself as the book is available on Amazon as stated previously.

As for Bach's cello sonatas, did I give you the impression that I believed this nonsense?

No, dear friend, the only thought I had when I read it is that it goes hand in hand with the trend of you accusing Mozart and Haydn of theft. Don't you think there is some similarity in the view of Anna Magdalena Bach composing Bach's cello sonatas and Luchesi composing the works
of Mozart and Haydn and teaching Beethoven
his craft.

Agnes.
--------------

[robert newman]

Dear Agnes,

You can't imagine how surprised I am that you have forgotten to answer my question ! Here it is again. Please don't bother to answer in more than one sentence. A simple 'true' or 'false'will be sufficient for any student who happens to be reading this post -

Q. 'Is it true or false that Constanze Mozart and Abbe Maximilian Stadler BOTH claimed the Requiem was sufficiently completed at the time of Mozart's death that any competent copyist could have completed it' ?

My dear friend, I am so relieved that you have avoided the idea of Anna Magdalena Bach having composed the Cello Sonatas.

I don't accuse Mozart and Haydn of theft. Such things were paid for. Funds were supplied and no theft was involved. I think I've already indicated this before. But the net result was to falsely increase the reputations of both these icons of the 'Wiener Klassik'.

Seriously, I am happy if we can continue to share points of view (even if we disagree) since we've often said strong words to each other and, in my case, none of them personally directed to you. To work in these areas knowing as I do how controversial they can be has sometimes made me need to write with little sympathy when a straight question is not answered fairly.

Regards

[ASSelby]

O.K. Robert.
Regards,
Agnes.

[ASSelby]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by robert newman:
[B]
Dear Hofrat,

I can only reply with that infamous maxim of the Jesuits, 'Give me a boy for six years, and he is mine for life'.

----

Robert, it was Lenin who said that.

Agnes,
-----------------


]

[ASSelby]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Dear Hofrat,

I can only reply with that infamous maxim of the Jesuits, 'Give me a boy for six years, and he is mine for life'.

Bear in mind too, of course, that from 1773 (at which time Kraus was 17 years old) he had no choice but to accept the presence of others in teaching positions wherever he studied. So, although I agree with you, the influence was such that he remained for the rest of his life, faithful to the Jesuits.

Regards

-----

About the boy, it was Lenin who said that.
The saying has nothing to do with the Jesuits.
----------------------

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Peter, it's strange how your evidence has become so highly selective. Here is your argument in a nutshell. Despite lacking nothing in talent and despite having an indisputable track record in composition from Bonn that included many works in many forms we are to accept (on the basis of corrected homework notes from his early years in Vienna) your interpretation that Beethoven did not know enough about the basics of music to avoid the most elementary errors in harmony/counterpoint. These you call 'strict counterpoint'.

Robert what is strange is how you make things up as you go along, we had this also when discussing the cantatas, when you invented a new theory to cover a point raised by Rod and got yourself in a complete muddle over the difference between sonata and cantata. You are obviously not a musician which is why you are having such difficulties in understanding things about theory, harmony, style, counterpoint.

First you say Beethoven discovered Bach in Vienna, until I point out Neefe was teaching him 'the 48' in Bonn. Then you say the Jesuits were trying to curtail Bach's teaching influence, yet we find Neefe, a major teacher at Bonn, 2nd in importance to Vienna you tell me (though it wasn't) actively teaching Bach. Then you tell me the Bach sons had little influence, despite C.P.E.Bach being the leading composer of the North german school and playing a major part in the development of sonata form. Then you tell me Beethoven's counterpoint exercises date from his Bonn days, despite all the evidence to the contrary. I could go on, but I'll end up with a tome like yours.

Now you claim Albrechtsberger was bought in by Haydn in an acy of desperation by the Jesuits, when in fact Albrechtsberger only became Beethoven's teacher after Haydn departed for London in 1794. You might ask yourself why the Jesuits didn't arrange for Beethoven to go to Albrechtsberger in the first place if they knew Haydn to be "a fraud".

Once again we are getting nowhere because to every fact you invent a new theory. It is evident on his arrival in Vienna Beethoven did not consider his studies complete or why did he seek out further tuition?

------------------
'Man know thyself'



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 04-26-2006).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:

...First you say Beethoven discovered Bach in Vienna,

I don't know if this has already been mentioned in this chain but I'm sure I've read that Beethoven was playing all of the First Book of Bach's '48' when he was a boy in Bonn (I'm away from my extensive 6 book Beethoven library at the moment).

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[robert newman]

Peter,

Less than 1 week ago I pointed out here on this forum that the Theme and Variations on 'Ah, je vous dirais Maman !' of Mozart (KV265) is not a 'sonata' but a Theme and Variations. (It was described as such by Agnes Selby). Another poster here said that me doing so was a 'technicality'.

A letter was written for the Bonn Literary Society saying Beethoven wrote a 'sonata' for them on the death of the Emperor Joseph. (This letter was discussed some time ago on the website).

(The term 'sonata' was sometimes used in the 18th century for works that were NOT really sonatas at all though, of course, we do not use it in this way).

Contrary to your opinion, I think I can distinguish between cantatas and sonatas. But I cannot deny that in fast exchanges with people on a subject that has many parts it's entirely possible I can make the same error. But I am not confused.

Are we having difficulties about form, style, harmony, counterpoint etc. ? The only difficulties we seem to be having is to explain how Beethoven knew less than an average '14 year old' at the time of his arrival in Vienna, despite being the composer of a whole series of works at Bonn. Your answer is to denigrate one of the greatest musicians of the 18th century - the Kapellmeister at Bonn, he being the undisputed head of a music chapel second in Germany and one of the great centres of music study of that time. (For sure, this hardly matters in traditional biographies, but...')

We already agree Beethoven came to Vienna being able to play Bach's 48 Preludes and Fugues. We also seem to agree he wrote at Bonn various works and that in the year early 1783 to early 1784 he was under the musical instruction of G. Ch. Neefe.

None of this can obscure the fact that Beethoven knew far more in Bonn than you suppose.

Perhaps you can provide us with a definition of 'strict counterpoint' and can tell us whether, in fact, Albrechtsberger was teaching 'strict counterpoint' at the time when he gave lessons to Beethoven in Vienna. For, as things stand, this is just a smoke screen to hide the alarming fact that Beethoven was far more competent as a composer (having learned composition to a degree far greater than any normal 14 year old student) at the time of his arrival in that city - and learned it from teachers, the head of which was the Bonn Kapellmeister.

Albrechtsberger did not need to teach 'strict counterpoint'. Palestrina, with respect, was of no great relevance to Beethoven, even in his early years at Vienna. He taught the young man music theory from mediaeval times that needed to be modified by the musical realities of late 18th, early 19th century practice (as I pointed out in my letter of yesterday). Indeed, in the example of the choral fugue I provided Albrechtsberger would need to have changed what he wrote himself to have conformed to a 'strict' counterpoint.

Times had changed Peter. Beethoven had heard Bach. He already had a track record of composition and was applying the spirit of these things to what he did - not the 'letter of the law laid down by Palestrina'.

You refer to CPE Bach. How true that those who fight over strict definitions are so often eclipsed by musical genius. Beethoven is one such case.

You next say I understand nothing of style. The 'galant' was a court style based on a philosophy. That of the 'Sturm and Drang' was intended for a wider musical public. The exponents of both styles regarded Bach as outmoded and are on record for saying so.

Contrary to your statement, I think I understand CPE Bach's musical ideas quite well. But, again, you've every right to say I'm unmusical. So too, it seems, was Beethoven. I'm therefore in good company.

Robert


[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 04-26-2006).]

[robert newman]

Rod is entirely right. Beethoven could and did play the 48 Preludes and Fugues while still at Bonn. He could and did write many works while he was there also.

But you must understand Rod that he arrived in Vienna knowing less in 'strict' counterpoint than a 14 year old boy.

If this is not a prime example of how the spirit of a thing eclipses the letter of a thing, I don't know one.

[robert newman]

Beethoven was not a strict disciple of Palestrina. Therefore Beethoven is musically ignorant. So is the 'logic' of the late Holy Roman Empire.

This reminds me of the printed attack made on JS Bach in 1737 by the music critic Johann Adam Scheibe. He attacks Bach through his relative academic ignorance in the 'Critischer Musikus' of March that year -

'How can a man (Bach) be faultless as a writer of music who has not sufficiently studied natural philosophy so as to have investigated and become familiar with the forces or nature and of reason ? How can he have all the advantages which are indespensable to the cultivation of good taste who has hardly troubled himself at all with their critical study......surely a thing as necessary to music as it is to oratory and poetry'.

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Peter,

Less than 1 week ago I pointed out here on this forum that the Theme and Variations on 'Ah, je vous dirais Maman !' of Mozart (KV265) is not a 'sonata' but a Theme and Variations. (It was described as such by Agnes Selby). Another poster here said that me doing so was a 'technicality'.

A letter was written for the Bonn Literary Society saying Beethoven wrote a 'sonata' for them on the death of the Emperor Joseph. (This letter was discussed some time ago on the website).

(The term 'sonata' was sometimes used in the 18th century for works that were NOT really sonatas at all though, of course, we do not use it in this way).

Contrary to your opinion, I think I can distinguish between cantatas and sonatas. But I cannot deny that in fast exchanges with people on a subject that has many parts it's entirely possible I can make the same error. But I am not confused.

Are we having difficulties about form, style, harmony, counterpoint etc. ? The only difficulties we seem to be having is to explain how Beethoven knew less than an average '14 year old' at the time of his arrival in Vienna, despite being the composer of a whole series of works at Bonn. Your answer is to denigrate one of the greatest musicians of the 18th century - the Kapellmeister at Bonn, he being the undisputed head of a music chapel second in Germany and one of the great centres of music study of that time. (For sure, this hardly matters in traditional biographies, but...')

We already agree Beethoven came to Vienna being able to play Bach's 48 Preludes and Fugues. We also seem to agree he wrote at Bonn various works and that in the year early 1783 to early 1784 he was under the musical instruction of G. Ch. Neefe.

None of this can obscure the fact that Beethoven knew far more in Bonn than you suppose.

Perhaps you can provide us with a definition of 'strict counterpoint' and can tell us whether, in fact, Albrechtsberger was teaching 'strict counterpoint' at the time when he gave lessons to Beethoven in Vienna. For, as things stand, this is just a smoke screen to hide the alarming fact that Beethoven was far more competent as a composer (having learned composition to a degree far greater than any normal 14 year old student) at the time of his arrival in that city - and learned it from teachers, the head of which was the Bonn Kapellmeister.

Albrechtsberger did not need to teach 'strict counterpoint'. Palestrina, with respect, was of no great relevance to Beethoven, even in his early years at Vienna. He taught the young man music theory from mediaeval times that needed to be modified by the musical realities of late 18th, early 19th century practice (as I pointed out in my letter of yesterday). Indeed, in the example of the choral fugue I provided Albrechtsberger would need to have changed what he wrote himself to have conformed to a 'strict' counterpoint.

Times had changed Peter. Beethoven had heard Bach. He already had a track record of composition and was applying the spirit of these things to what he did - not the 'letter of the law laid down by Palestrina'.

You refer to CPE Bach. How true that those who fight over strict definitions are so often eclipsed by musical genius. Beethoven is one such case.

You next say I understand nothing of style. The 'galant' was a court style based on a philosophy. That of the 'Sturm and Drang' was intended for a wider musical public. The exponents of both styles regarded Bach as outmoded and are on record for saying so.

Contrary to your statement, I think I understand CPE Bach's musical ideas quite well. But, again, you've every right to say I'm unmusical. So too, it seems, was Beethoven. I'm therefore in good company.

Robert


[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 04-26-2006).]

Robert there is no point in descending into the childish as your recent posts I'm afraid are doing. You are continually misrepresenting what I say - I said as a 14 year old I had studied Strict counterpoint and was doing those very exercises Beethoven was doing in Vienna. I never said Beethoven knew less than a 14 year old.

You may regard Palestrina as irrelevant, but to the 18th century Fux's gradus ad parnassum based on this strict contrapuntal style was regarded as of prime importance in instructing students in composition - Bach, Mozart, Haydn and at Vienna, Beethoven - all studied this.

That Beethoven hadn't studied this until Vienna is evident from the exercises we have in his and Haydn's hand and the later work he did with Albrechtsberger. Now perhaps you can grasp the fact that it doesn't mean Beethoven had no knowledge of harmony, choral music, theory etc.. all this he was exposed to at Bonn - the most important of which being Bach's 48 (no thanks here to Luchesi). You are the one who is claiming Beethoven composed nothing of real siginificance at Bonn, not I. The cantatas and the 3 piano quartets are considered as his greatest Bonn achievements, except by you.

One last point, Luchesi was not the greatest musician of the 18th century. It is here where all your errors spring from - Haydn and Mozart were great composers, Luchesi was a talented kappelmeister.

------------------
'Man know thyself'