Bach's Impact on 18th Century Music

[robert newman]

Thanks Rod !

Yes, I've listened to your very nice selection from Handel's 'Jeptha' and really loved two tracks in particular, both arias, 'Waft her,angels, through the skies' and 'Happy They ! This vital breath'. (The second of these reminds me of Purcell and is lovely). 'Waft her, angels' is of course a sublime aria. Handel often moves me close to tears.

Regarding Luchesi, his office was mentioned only in relation to the question of Beethoven's teaching and to the question of whether Vogler's methods were not a rival to those of Bach/Kirnberger etc.

Regards

p.s. How highly do you rate Handel's 'Samson' ? I have a recording on vinyl (Philips) with the Utah Symphony Orchestra/Maurice Abravanel which I immediately love and which I would like to listen to again soon.

[Teresa]

Originally posted by Rod:
Should I be surprised that in a chain supposedly concerning Bach we yet again find ourselves discussing Luchesi et al? As a more interesting diversion I have uploaded some lovely music from Handel's final oratorio Jephtha at my site: http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/handelforum/

But back on the real topic of this forum, Robert I would be more interested to read your opinions of the Beethoven music at the mp3 (WMA!) page than any of the largely historical theories you have addressed this page with so far.

Hello Rod,

I just recently heard an aria (hope I'm using the correct word here) from Handel's Atalanta, and it was stunning. It was from a CD of Handel opera highlights and this particular highlight was sung by Pavarotti. What can you tell me about this opera? If you like, we can take this to your Handel forum.

Regards,
Teresa

[Rod]

Originally posted by Teresa:
Hello Rod,

I just recently heard an aria (hope I'm using the correct word here) from Handel's Atalanta, and it was stunning. It was from a CD of Handel opera highlights and this particular highlight was sung by Pavarotti. What can you tell me about this opera? If you like, we can take this to your Handel forum.

Regards,
Teresa

You'll have to get a Yahoo account before we can take it there Teresa, but I'd happily discuss the Diabelli Variation music I posted here!

Actually I haven't heard Atalanta so you have one-up on me there, but I'm not surprised you found a 'hit' from it. I have about 26 Handel operas on CD/DVD and each one is packed with memorable numbers - perhaps one day Handel will be restored to his former glory as King of the opera.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by robert newman:

Well, yes, but the very same can therefore be said of Neefe and all others described so frequently as 'Beethoven's teachers' at Bonn.

Yes and I've explained about Neefe - he wasn't regarded as a great teacher, just an able musician. The other Beethoven teachers were for specific instruments such as violin, Viola,and Organ. You have made such claims for Luchesi, stating that he was Beethoven's main teacher and far more important than Neefe. You have claimed that he wrote the greatest music of the classical period and yet he was unable to furnish Beethoven with the rudiments.

What we seem to have is a contradiction that needs an explanation - how Beethoven is credited with writing various works before his arrival in Vienna and yet lacking (supposedly) the basic knowledge to do his theoretical homework once he was there.

It isn't a contradiction - Beethoven was a genius. However he didn't know the strict rules of counterpoint which a teacher such as Luchesi should have given him.

I mention again the possibility that the 'mistakes' in Beethoven's work may be something else.

They are basic mistakes in Contrapuntal exercises, the sort I did as a 14 year old student.

It seems reasonable to believe that the Kapellmeister (and others) taught the young Beethoven but, again, WHAT did he teach him (?) - this is (as you say) at odds with the errors in his early work at Bonn and with the list of works attributed to him while he was still there.

Was Hadyn completely incompetent ?

Haydn inherited Luchesi's pupil according to you. It is a well known fact that Beethoven was dissatisfied with him as a teacher as he didn't consider him strict enough. For his part, the aging Haydn probably had little interest in his charge.



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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Thanks Rod !

Yes, I've listened to your very nice selection from Handel's 'Jeptha' and really loved two tracks in particular, both arias, 'Waft her,angels, through the skies' and 'Happy They ! This vital breath'. (The second of these reminds me of Purcell and is lovely). 'Waft her, angels' is of course a sublime aria. Handel often moves me close to tears.

Regarding Luchesi, his office was mentioned only in relation to the question of Beethoven's teaching and to the question of whether Vogler's methods were not a rival to those of Bach/Kirnberger etc.

Regards

p.s. How highly do you rate Handel's 'Samson' ? I have a recording on vinyl (Philips) with the Utah Symphony Orchestra/Maurice Abravanel which I immediately love and which I would like to listen to again soon.

I'm glad you like the tracks at my site. When you hear music like this you may understand why I don't care who wrote whatever Mozart opera (and I've heard a few of those!).

Regarding Luchesi I just think enough has been said already here about this man. Beethoven's music itself is more worthy of discussion than such minutiae.

I have a more Baroque Samson on CD by Harry Christophers and the Sixteen, the best currently available and I can recommend it, though there is still room for improvement. But regardless anything by Handel I can recommend without reservation. The problem, as is so much the case with Beethoven, lies in the totally misguided interpretations that plagued the performance of Handel's music for years.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 04-24-2006).]

[robert newman]

Hi Peter,

You write -

'I've explained about Neefe - he wasn't regarded as a great teacher, just an able musician. The other Beethoven teachers were for specific instruments such as violin, Viola,and Organ'.

In reply, yes, and therefore it is grossly misleading for virtually everyone at Bonn to be so often described in biographies as 'Beethoven's teachers' (implying music theory) other than the man who (indisputably) was in charge of his musical teaching, the Kapellmeister, Andrea Luchesi.

I have further pointed out (though it seems I must repeat it) that the Neefe article in 'Cramer's Magazine' was written at the very time when he, Neefe, was taking care of Beethoven - and the same time when Kapellmeister Luchesi was in Italy for a 1 year break. This seems to me an obvious and relevant point since, prior to this time, the teaching of Beethoven (good or otherwise) was the remit of the Kapellmeister.

You also write -

'You have claimed that he (Luchesi) wrote the greatest music of the classical period'.

Some of it, certainly. Let's please not exaggerate. But the same is claimed of Joseph Haydn. And of WA Mozart.

The fact that Beethoven (a man we agree was a musical genius) seems to have been deficient in his theoretical work - work which Haydn (by your own admission) seems to have payed almost no attention to, or seems to have been unable to teach well, may (I have suggested) account for the fact that his work appears so error filled. I say this because (and here is the point again) he, Beethoven, had already written significant music while at Bonn. Is this not so ? Therefore, Peter, you cannot on the one hand speak of Beethoven being ignorant in Vienna and at the same time say that he is author of various significant works at Bonn. Surely the truth is that Beethoven, for reasons that deserve closer study, is in trouble with Haydn in Vienna and is not at all happy with what is being 'taught' to him there. It is Beethoven who says, 'From Haydn I learned nothing'.

You would portray the 21 year old Beethoven as ignorant of the rudiments of music in Vienna. I do not do so for all of the above reasons. It's the incompetence of Haydn that is the key to this - not the laxity of Luchesi or the inability of Beethoven.

'Haydn probably had little interest in his charge'.

Well, yes, and surely that is your admission that he was no teacher - a thing said by Beethoven himself. But I repeat that there are today works written by Beethoven at Bonn (according to your goodself) which demonstrate that Beethoven had, in fact, been well taught.

So, which is it to be ?

Robert

P.S. Don't know if any reader cares to have coffee/tea with me in London. (I'll be at the British Library on Thursday and Friday this week and at the library of the Royal College of Music on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday of next week). It would be nice to meet fellow posters if that's possible.

Robert


[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 04-24-2006).]

[atserriotserri]

Originally posted by robert newman:

P.S. Don't know if any reader cares to have coffee/tea with me in London. (I'll be at the British Library on Thursday and Friday this week and at the library of the Royal College of Music on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday of next week). It would be nice to meet fellow posters if that's possible.

Robert


[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 04-24-2006).]

I've just had a word with the company manager here in Barcelona and said something like "...nice try...".
Another inditia that led me evaluate that answer as a "no" was how fast he dressed with his coat of mail and unsheathed a large crusade sword just before the exit door while yelling "thou shalt not depart". He just needs me, which sometimes happens with us, lawyers.

[Rod]

Originally posted by robert newman:


P.S. Don't know if any reader cares to have coffee/tea with me in London. (I'll be at the British Library on Thursday and Friday this week and at the library of the Royal College of Music on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday of next week). It would be nice to meet fellow posters if that's possible.

Robert


[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 04-24-2006).]

Well I am often to be found in the Nero Cafe outside Holborn Stn or Starbucks in Borders at Oxford Circus if you're ever around. Though Beethoven's teachers are off the menu!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Hofrat]

Dear Forum;

Could someone explain to me how every thread on this forum turns into a battle ground of the Luchesi-Jesuit debate?


Hofrat

[Rod]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
Dear Forum;

Could someone explain to me how every thread on this forum turns into a battle ground of the Luchesi-Jesuit debate?


Hofrat

I said much the same above in this chain, at three different posts!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 04-24-2006).]

[robert newman]

Dear Atserriotserri,

Barcelona ? Such an interesting city (though I've only read of it and seen photographs of its extraordinary architecture).

Well, I won't make any jokes about lawyers - I promise - and still hope maybe one day we can have that tea or coffee in London - at which I promise to be on my best behaviour !

Best regards

[robert newman]

Dear Rod,

I can be at the 'Nero' as you suggest (opp. Holborn Station) around 2pm on this Thursday or Friday if that's OK for you (?)- I promise not to say anything about Beethoven's teachers.

Rgds

[robert newman]

Dear Hofrat,

I know it must look like that, although the thread's title is clear enough. The subject of Beethoven's teaching methods came up (so perhaps you can sympathise with the unmentionable Kapellmeister 'L' being named).

But yes, I'm happy to let it rest at this.

Rgds

[robert newman]

OK fine - I won't mention anytbing more here on this forum about Luchesi or the role of the Jesuits in the Wiener Klassik. But I do hope to post here soon on the strange career of Georg Vogler (if that's OK).

Regards

[Peter]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by robert newman:

I have further pointed out (though it seems I must repeat it) that the Neefe article in 'Cramer's Magazine' was written at the very time when he, Neefe, was taking care of Beethoven - and the same time when Kapellmeister Luchesi was in Italy for a 1 year break. This seems to me an obvious and relevant point since, prior to this time, the teaching of Beethoven (good or otherwise) was the remit of the Kapellmeister.


So what are you suggesting it was the remit of Luchesi to teach Beethoven, Organ, Piano, Violin, Viola, composition, or all of these? I'm pleased you pointed out to me about Neefe's article because you were completely unaware that Beethoven had studied Bach at Bonn under Neefe.


Some of it, certainly. Let's please not exaggerate. But the same is claimed of Joseph Haydn. And of WA Mozart.

You are exaggerating! All Haydn's London symphonies and masses, Mozart's greatest symphonies - this is your claim!

You would portray the 21 year old Beethoven as ignorant of the rudiments of music in Vienna. I do not do so for all of the above reasons. It's the incompetence of Haydn that is the key to this - not the laxity of Luchesi or the inability of Beethoven.


How can Haydn be blamed for Beethoven's lack of knowledge of strict contrapuntal rules when it was the 'great' Luchesi who had been his teacher for years in Bonn? - This didn't mean he was incapable of writing music - it obviously meant Luchesi hadn't taught him properly, or perhaps as with Haydn, Beethoven learnt nothing from him, which is why he valued Neefe for giving him his true education through Bach.




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'Man know thyself'