Bach's Impact on 18th Century Music

[robert newman]

Here is the question yet again. Many students and other readers do not have access to your views expressed in your book. I will make it extremely simple.

Q. 'Is it true or false that Constanze Mozart and Abbe Maximilian Stadler BOTH claimed the Requiem was sufficiently completed at the time of Mozart's death that any competent copyist could have completed it' ?

TRUE OR FALSE ?

There, Agnes. You cannot imagine how greatly I would appreciate (and perhaps readers of this forum) would appreciate having your answer to this most painful question from the biographer of Constanze Mozart.

But if you simply refuse to answer the question let others see once again your true attitude on such a straightforward issue. I will then provide them with the documentary evidence from Constanze Mozart and from Maximilian Stadler's own writings - and that, with respect, will be something that must diminish you in the eyes of students.

So at the fourth time of asking, how about a straight answer ?


Robert


P.S. On the other hand Agnes, just forget it. It's beyond you.


[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 04-26-2006).]

[Sorrano]

Whoa!! Are we still talking about Bach's impact on 18th Century Music??? My 2 cents worth on this is that his impact was minimal; I think his sons had greater impact on the development of the musical genres--specifically sonata-allegro forms as well as composers such as Sammartini and Stamitz.

[Selby A]

PS. On the other hand Agnes, just forget it. It's beyond you.

-----------

The above was unnecessary, Robert.

You know perfectly well that I have
debated this question with you six
years ago on Open Mozart but to no avail.

If Peter would like me to send him my article on the Requiem, I will gladly
send it. It will then be up to Peter
to decide if it is appropriate for the
Beethoven site.

Agnes.

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:
Here is the question yet again. Many students and other readers do not have access to your views expressed in your book. I will make it extremely simple.

Q. 'Is it true or false that Constanze Mozart and Abbe Maximilian Stadler BOTH claimed the Requiem was sufficiently completed at the time of Mozart's death that any competent copyist could have completed it' ?

TRUE OR FALSE ?

There, Agnes. You cannot imagine how greatly I would appreciate (and perhaps readers of this forum) would appreciate having your answer to this most painful question from the biographer of Constanze Mozart.

But if you simply refuse to answer the question let others see once again your true attitude on such a straightforward issue. I will then provide them with the documentary evidence from Constanze Mozart and from Maximilian Stadler's own writings - and that, with respect, will be something that must diminish you in the eyes of students.

So at the fourth time of asking, how about a straight answer ?


Robert


P.S. On the other hand Agnes, just forget it. It's beyond you.


[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 04-26-2006).]

Robert - we are trying to be tolerant of your views, which even you would admit are controversial to say the least. Indeed I have more than allowed you to have your say, whilst other forums have not! There is no need for your personal attacks on Agnes, and quite frankly this post is beneath you.

I think the whole debate has run its course on this forum but seem to recall you were writing a book, much of which I'm sure we've all read here. Can you enlighten us with the progress of this tome? I think the time to continue these discussions will be when you have concluded your research and published your findings, we are simply going round in circles at the moment.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[robert newman]

Agnes,

Is it appropriate for this Beethoven website that I should over and over ask you a true/false question related to music history but find that you, a person who has written on the subject under discussion and who so publicly claims 'care for the education of students' should so persistently refuse to provide here a straight answer ?

If the Beethoven forum have lost patience I cannot blame them. I personally apologise to this forum and to students of music.

Both Constanze Mozart and also Abbe Maximilian Stadler lied about 'Mozart's' Requiem by saying that it was virtually complete at the time of Mozart's death. This was one of dozens of lies they told. Others were the falsification of the signature on its title page and the statement in the same hand saying it had been written by 'me' Mozart. That is the truth and truth is what students are entitled to have.



[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 04-27-2006).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by robert newman:


'It also fell to him (Beethoven) to end up as a GUILTLESS holder of Andrea Luchesi's works if we begin with the 3 quartets WoO36, the trio WoO37, the concerto WoO4 and the Hess 13 serenade, which Austrian/German musicology has obstinately persisted to head under one name, notwithstanding Ferdinand Reis's refusal to accept as authentic WoO36 (1832)....etc.'

Regards

I am aware of Ries doubts about WoO36 but they seem unfounded when one listens to the music. Also they contain two clear references to Beethoven's later efforts (perhaps Ries could not accept this borrowing by Beethoven), as does the piano concerto WoO4.

The Mozart works that may have influenced WoO36 quartets are the six violin sonatas K296, 376-380. Also the finale of B's C major quartet aparently follows closely the outline of the rondo from Mozart's sonata in the same key K296. In B's E major quartet there is a stronger structural comparison with M's Sonata K379. I do not think it impossible that B could have been exposed to M's music in Bonn even if the records show nothing.

The trio WoO37 I have no problem with either as a Beethoven work, a slightly more polished effort than WoO36 as one might expect, being produced a little later. At the end of the day it must be decided on musical grounds and not inconclusive circumstantial evidence.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 04-27-2006).]

[robert newman]

Dear Peter,

It's to your great credit that I've been able to introduce a series of discussions on music and its history on this forum, and this on issues where toleration/open-mindedness is a rare thing.

I maintain (and the evidence will continue to grow whether I write or not) that the careers of Haydn and Mozart were largely manufactured.

In asking Agnes Selby to provide simple answers to a whole range of questions I think good has come by her refusal to answer illustrating how dirty opposition can be.

I estimate that I am still around 2 years away from finishing a book 'Mozart and the Music of the Late Holy Roman Empire', since there are sections not yet written on 'Don Giovanni', 'Cosi fan Tutte' and 'Die Zauberflote' though there are already many notes.

I want to give credit here to Prof. Giorgio Taboga for his remarkable discoveries in these areas of musical/historical research (a good part of which I have used and which I have found to be valid) and to so many others who have shown great patience in my various posts, not least your goodself.

These things have real relevance on the musical life and career of Beethoven as already discussed many times. The music in question has survived though, of course, hardly the reputations of Mozart and Haydn.

Thank you again for your many kindnesses and for your fairness. The same for members of this forum.

Robert Newman

[robert newman]

Dear Sorrano,

I'm sure you're right that at the public level Bach's impact on 18th century music was minimal - but only in one sense. It had huge impact on his critics, who devised new styles and forms to counter the possibility that the Bach legacy would form the basis for the teaching of music over very wide areas of Europe.

But with the collapse of the Holy Roman Empire the appreciation of Bach's legacy as the basis for music teaching was quickly appreciated and today it has rightly been described as perhaps the greatest gift yet given to students of music.

Robert

[Selby A]

Dear Robert,

I will gladly provide my article on the Requiem, if Peter would like me to send it to him.

I assure you that the opposition does not play dirty but it plays from a strong position of research based on available data.

This research by many distinguished Mozart scholars is contrary to what you imagine
history to be and it is for this reason that I refuse to debate the questions you pose. I have already had the experience
and do not want to subject myself to any
further stress.

I wish you good luck with the publication
of your book.

Agnes.

[robert newman]

Dear Agnes,

I do not want to debate any issue with you. I simply want you to answer straightforward questions, these made simple by answering 'yes' or 'no'. I've even given you the option of answering 'true' or 'false' and this so repeatedly that everyone is tired of this nonsense.

The documentary evidence says that Constanze Mozart lied about 'Mozart's Requiem'. The documentary evidence says that her mentor, Abbe Maximilian Stadler lied too. The documentary evidence says that Sussmayer lied about and repeatedly changed his story about his involvement in the Requiem. The documentary evidence overwhelmingly supports the arguments given as early as 1825 by Gottfried Weber that 'Mozart's Requiem' is a blatant forgery - one of dozens made to support the bogus life and career of Mozart.

The documentary evidence at each and every stage of Mozart's life strongly suggests fraud. We are dealing here with myth.

Far from being afraid of 'experts' I am making myself familiar with what they have written and have found what they have written to be totally at odds with the actual facts of the case.

It is documentary evidence that has convinced me and others that we would run in to a brick wall of opposition when we began to question these issues in detail. And so it proves to be.

Anyway, best wishes. You must follow your path and I mine.

Robert Newman

[atserriotserri]

Originally posted by robert newman:

I'm interested by your idea that Beethoven was looking to Mozart by his mid-teens. That suggests around 1785, yes ? How is it that not a single work by Mozart is mentioned as being at Bonn during the Inventory made there in 1784 ?

Rgds

I'm reading an interesting essay by French film-maker Eric Rohmer named "de Mozart en Beethoven". Which surpised me because it's far more detailed and deep that I thought.
In a chapter Rohmer says (I translate from Spanish): "... I already said I was not going to write as a historian. I don't pretend to demonstrate with evidences how really one influenced the other. (One evidence, at least, I have: Beethoven trasncribed a whole movement from the Quartet in La. The Finale, but I want to comment the andante)...".
He was talking about Mozart's Quartets "To Haydn". Therefore he would be talking about the K. 464, which according to Koechel was enterd into the catalog on Jan. 10, 1785. Can anyone confirm what Rohmer says?

Just one beautiful quote, the last sentence in the essay:
"Beethoven does not dictate us how to act, even in the famous "ess muss sein" taking it - why not? - literally. He simply opens for us the field of what is possible, that is, of our freedom."

(P.S.: Robert I'm still travelling, I have not forgotten the Gould transcription issue.)

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Dear Peter,

It's to your great credit that I've been able to introduce a series of discussions on music and its history on this forum, and this on issues where toleration/open-mindedness is a rare thing.

I maintain (and the evidence will continue to grow whether I write or not) that the careers of Haydn and Mozart were largely manufactured.

In asking Agnes Selby to provide simple answers to a whole range of questions I think good has come by her refusal to answer illustrating how dirty opposition can be.

I estimate that I am still around 2 years away from finishing a book 'Mozart and the Music of the Late Holy Roman Empire', since there are sections not yet written on 'Don Giovanni', 'Cosi fan Tutte' and 'Die Zauberflote' though there are already many notes.

I want to give credit here to Prof. Giorgio Taboga for his remarkable discoveries in these areas of musical/historical research (a good part of which I have used and which I have found to be valid) and to so many others who have shown great patience in my various posts, not least your goodself.

These things have real relevance on the musical life and career of Beethoven as already discussed many times. The music in question has survived though, of course, hardly the reputations of Mozart and Haydn.

Thank you again for your many kindnesses and for your fairness. The same for members of this forum.

Robert Newman

The point is Robert that it isn't members of this forum you have to convince - if you have definite proof for everything, then it is the musical establishment, the academics who have made these studies their life work. I do not have the expertise, access to the necessary documents or manuscripts to be able to offer a truly professional response to many of your points. As you know I do not accept most of your points because it seems not only an impossibilty to have covered up such a thing for so long having deceived the greatest musicians and scholars, but also your arguments do seem loosely constructed with many assumptions not based on indisputable evidence.

This is why we can get no further here without constant repetition - publish your book and be damned as the saying goes!


------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by Selby A:

Dear Robert,

I will gladly provide my article on the Requiem, if Peter would like me to send it to him.

I assure you that the opposition does not play dirty but it plays from a strong position of research based on available data.

This research by many distinguished Mozart scholars is contrary to what you imagine
history to be and it is for this reason that I refuse to debate the questions you pose. I have already had the experience
and do not want to subject myself to any
further stress.

I wish you good luck with the publication
of your book.

Agnes.

I see no need Agnes as I'm sure you are aware Robert will dismiss it all anyway. In a way these debates are healthy as I suppose we do need to rethink our attitudes from time to time and examine exactly why a work of art is great. Robert has certainly raised some interesting questions, though I think he has drawn the wrong conclusions. I have no doubt that Robert will continue his quest ad infinitum, but I don't think the reputations of Mozart and Haydn are quite in the danger he presumes.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Dear Sorrano,

I'm sure you're right that at the public level Bach's impact on 18th century music was minimal - but only in one sense. It had huge impact on his critics, who devised new styles and forms to counter the possibility that the Bach legacy would form the basis for the teaching of music over very wide areas of Europe.

But with the collapse of the Holy Roman Empire the appreciation of Bach's legacy as the basis for music teaching was quickly appreciated and today it has rightly been described as perhaps the greatest gift yet given to students of music.

Robert

I don't think the critics had much to do with the influence or lack of it. Bach's music was old fashioned in his own time. The entire music world was moving away from the styles and forms that we refer to as Baroque. Handel (and I forgot to mention him) was another who had much greater impact with his operas and oratorios. But Bach's music, as good as it was, was simply not progressive.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Sorrano:

I don't think the critics had much to do with the influence or lack of it. Bach's music was old fashioned in his own time. The entire music world was moving away from the styles and forms that we refer to as Baroque. Handel (and I forgot to mention him) was another who had much greater impact with his operas and oratorios. But Bach's music, as good as it was, was simply not progressive.

Thanks but Bach's music is so progressive its today globally acknowledged by jazz musicians and virtually every other sort of musician. To suggest this music is not progressive is, to me, astonishing. But I respect your opinion.

Regards

Robert Newman (in coffee shop with Rod!)



[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 04-27-2006).]