'Le Nozze di Figaro' and the 'Mozart' Violin Concertos

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Cetto von Cronstorff:
It is well known that the Eroica theme originates from the ouverture of Mozart's 'Bastien und Bastienne'.

Dear Cetto;

If I am not mistaken, "Bastien and Bastienne" was never performed or published in Mozart's life time or Beethoven's life time. To say Beethoven copied it from Mozart is absolutely ridiculous as Beethoven could not have ever heard it or seen it.

The "Eroica" theme I was referring to was the theme Beethoven used in the finale of his "Eroica Symphony," in his "Eroica Variations," in his "Creatures of Prometheus," and in his counterdances.

Hofrat

[robert newman]

I think the theme found in the early Mozart and much later in Beethoven's 'Eroica' is the same. But the explanation is not that Beethoven took it from Mozart. (As Hofrat says, the chance of Beethoven getting this from Mozart is virtually nil). In my view both versions may well have France in commmon as an explanation, suggesting this theme may have been popular at the time when Mozart used it, and even more so at the time of the French Revolution.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
Dear Cetto;

If I am not mistaken, "Bastien and Bastienne" was never performed or published in Mozart's life time or Beethoven's life time. To say Beethoven copied it from Mozart is absolutely ridiculous as Beethoven could not have ever heard it or seen it.

The "Eroica" theme I was referring to was the theme Beethoven used in the finale of his "Eroica Symphony," in his "Eroica Variations," in his "Creatures of Prometheus," and in his counterdances.

Hofrat

Yet you have still not answered my question above as to why you believe it is not Beethoven's but an anonymous composer!!!!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by robert newman:

I think the theme found in the early Mozart and much later in Beethoven's 'Eroica' is the same. But the explanation is not that Beethoven took it from Mozart. (As Hofrat says, the chance of Beethoven getting this from Mozart is virtually nil). In my view both versions may well have France in commmon as an explanation, suggesting this theme may have been popular at the time when Mozart used it, and even more so at the time of the French Revolution.

Remember the Eroica theme actually consists to two themes, and why would Beethoven borrow this popular theme for a small element within a humble set of dances?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:

I think the theme found in the early Mozart and much later in Beethoven's 'Eroica' is the same. But the explanation is not that Beethoven took it from Mozart. (As Hofrat says, the chance of Beethoven getting this from Mozart is virtually nil). In my view both versions may well have France in commmon as an explanation, suggesting this theme may have been popular at the time when Mozart used it, and even more so at the time of the French Revolution.

As Hofrat says the Bastien theme is similar to the 1st movt theme of the Eroica, not the 4th movt.


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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
As Hofrat says the Bastien theme is similar to the 1st movt theme of the Eroica, not the 4th movt.

There seems to be some confusion here, the 'Eroica' theme is that found in the 4th movement of the symphony, not the 1st.

PS I emailed you yesterday the details for the next MP3s (or rather WMAs now) which I have uploaded Peter, did you get it?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Rod:
Yet you have still not answered my question above as to why you believe it is not Beethoven's but an anonymous composer!!!!

Dear Rod;

I am sorry but I am not at home and I have no way to reach my references and sources. If I recall correctly, I read an article that the theme Beethoven used in those four works I previously mentioned was a popular march by an anonymous writer. I am sorry that I can not be more specific at this time.

Using other composers' themes was a widely accepted practice. It by no means detracts from the composer that uses them or the work that he incorporated them. Beethoven did it too, and I can think of several others off the top of my head:
1. Piano trio opus 11 (3rd movement).
2. String quartets opus 59.
3. Consecration of House overture.

And Mozart used a theme of Clementi in his overture to "Magic Flute!" Brahms used a theme by Viotti in his double concerto! Mahler used "Frere Jacques" in his first symphony!


Hofrat

[robert newman]

Some brief notes on Josef Martin Kraus in Paris and the earlier stay there of Abbe Georg Vogler (teacher of composition for some time of Kraus while at Mannheim).

Abbe Vogler arrived in Paris 4 years earlier than JM Kraus (1780) at the very time when Beaumarchais was showing a version of his 'Figaro' to trusted friends for the first time. This news soon became known to the French Prime Minister (a close friend of Beaumarchais) who, just before his sudden death wrote privately to both King Gustav of Sweden and the Empress of Russia with the news that ‘Figaro’, after many intrigues and delays was close to being ready for performance – though, of course, there were to be 4 more years of delay before its premiere. It’s known both rulers were extremely interested in supporting Beaumarchai’s play. (Beaumarchais was later to refuse a firm offer of patronage of the piece from the Russian Empress). By the time Kraus left Sweden for his extended European tour (paid for by King Gustav) an early copy of the text of 'Figaro' may well have been in the hands of the Swedish king – this fully 4 years before premiere of it as a play and nearly 6 before premiere in Vienna of the opera. (In addition, the Empress of Russia was in regular but highly confidential contact with her artistic agent in Paris on the subject of Beaumarchais – none other than Baron Grimm – the patron to Mozart during his disastrous visit to the city some years earlier. Like Kraus Vogler had also remained in Paris for several years (writing and publishing music as did Kraus) and returned to become Kapellmeister at Munich for only a very short time before making extensive travel once again.

On arrival in Paris in the summer of 1784, Kraus is known to have stayed for several months at a hotel in the city before moving to the official residence of the Swedish ambassador Count Gustav Philip Creutz (Creutz had been in Paris since 1764). This same Count Creutz was a keen musical enthusiast with a history of involvement in opera and special love of opera buffa. He had been personally involved in making the reputation of the composer Gretry (1741-1813) in France (Gretry eventually becoming the most successful writer of comic opera in Paris). His assistance to him began in 1768 when he arranged for the composer to get a libretto for his first successful opera there, ‘Le Huron’ (premiered in August that same year). The librettist was Marmontel.

P.S. There remains the intriguing fact that a musical work entitled 'Le Nozze di Figaro' was performed at Frankfurt am Main on the 11th April 1785 - fully one year before the 'premiere' in Vienna and for which there has been a little reported discovery of a playbill in 1908. (Mr Giorgio Taboga has suggested the players were from the Grossmann theatre group, connected with the Elector of Bonn, of which Andrea Luchesi was in charge).

RN

[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 04-14-2006).]

[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 04-14-2006).]

[robert newman]

MOZART, VOGLER, THE ORDER OF THE GOLDEN SPUR AND POSSIBLE CONNECTION WITH REHEARSALS FOR THE FIRST PERFORMANCE OF 'LE NOZZE DI FIGARO'

Mozart, Vogler and the Order of the Golden Spur with possible connection to Mozart rehearsing for the first performance of ‘Le Nozze di Figaro’

It’s well known that Mozart was awarded the Order of the Golden Spur by the pope in Rome. In fact Mozart was awarded in 1770 - July 4th - (with his father and Padre Martini in attendance) and the Abbe Vogler 3 years later - 1773 (probably on March 15th that year). This ancient Order was almost always awarded by the popes themselves.

This Order of the Golden Spur was divided it into two classes, Commanders and Knights. The former wore a large sized decoration suspended at the neck and the latter a small sized one on the left side of the breast. The decoration, according to the Gregorian Brief, was an 8 pointed gold cross with an image of St. Sylvester wearing the tiara on its white enamelled centre, and around the centre a blue enamelled circle bearing in letters of gold the inscription SANC. SYLVESTER P. M. On the reverse side, in golden characters, was stamped MDCCCXLI GREGORIUS XVI RESTITUIT. (A painting exists of Mozart wearing this award). A golden spur hung suspended from the sides of the bifurcated foot of the cross of the order to mark the unity of the Sylvestrine order with that of the Golden Militia. The ribbon of the decoration was of silk composed of five strands, three of which were red, and two black. Commanders wore the decoration at the neck, the Knights on the breast. The ribbon of the former was larger than that of the latter, the cross of the former was also more elegant than that of the latter. The official costume was a red evening dress coat with two rows of gold buttons with green collar and facing. The gold embroideries of the coat were of a more ornate design for commanders than for knights. White trousers, with gold side bands, hat with white plumes and a sword with a silver hilt and also gilt spurs, completed this rarely used costume. Knights of both classes wore around the neck a gold chain from which was suspended a tiny golden spur commemorative of the ancient order of that denomination.

Two other points – in the famous painting by Kraft (made some years after Mozart’s death but considered by Constanze Mozart to be a very close likeness) we see Mozart in a red jacket of the kind mentioned above. (He is known to have loved his red jacket) And, remarkably, in his 2 volume ‘Reminiscences’ the tenor Michael Kelly (1826) who was of course involved in early Vienna performances of ‘Figaro’ describes Mozart conducting rehearsals of the orchestra ‘in a cocked hat’ at the time when the orchestra marvelled at ‘Non piu andrai’ at their first hearing of the piece - this sort of headgear also part of the official uniform of the Order as described above. Did Mozart attend the Burgtheater in the costume described above during his work on ‘Figaro’ perhaps ?

R

P.S. Kelly says: "I remember that at the first rehearsal of the full band Mozart was on the stage, with his crimson pelisse and his gold-banded cocked hat, giving the time of the music to the orchestra. I shall never forget the little animated countenance when lighted up with the glowing rays of genius. It is as impossible to describe it as it would be to paint sunbeams...... those in the orchestra I thought would never have ceased applauding by beating the bows of their violins against the music desks. The little man acknowledged by repeated obeisances his thanks for those distinguishing marks of enthusiastic applause bestowed upon him'.

(Michael Kelly - 'Reminiscences' - published in London 1826 in 2 volumes)

R

[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 04-14-2006).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:
P.S. There remains the intriguing fact that a musical work entitled 'Le Nozze di Figaro' was performed at Frankfurt am Main on the 11th April 1785 - fully one year before the 'premiere' in Vienna and for which there has been a little reported discovery of a playbill in 1908. (Mr Giorgio Taboga has suggested the players were from the Grossmann theatre group, connected with the Elector of Bonn, of which Andrea Luchesi was in charge).

Who does the playbill say the music for this 1785 version of figaro is by? Why if the King of Sweden was keen to promote Figaro could Kraus not have written the music without any subterfuge?

You have extraordinary faith in human nature if you truly believe a genius willingly writes music for other lesser composers - can you imagine Beethoven writing his 9th symphony and allowing Ries to claim it as his?

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
Dear Rod;

I am sorry but I am not at home and I have no way to reach my references and sources. If I recall correctly, I read an article that the theme Beethoven used in those four works I previously mentioned was a popular march by an anonymous writer. I am sorry that I can not be more specific at this time.

Using other composers' themes was a widely accepted practice. It by no means detracts from the composer that uses them or the work that he incorporated them. Beethoven did it too, and I can think of several others off the top of my head:
1. Piano trio opus 11 (3rd movement).
2. String quartets opus 59.
3. Consecration of House overture.

And Mozart used a theme of Clementi in his overture to "Magic Flute!" Brahms used a theme by Viotti in his double concerto! Mahler used "Frere Jacques" in his first symphony!


Hofrat

Does your source identify the theme in the bass to be also from another composer? I think this 'dual nature' of the theme as a whole made it a good prospect for use as a variation subject. In Creatures of Prometheus Beethoven mixed the Eroica theme from WoO14 (nr7) with another dance from the suite (nr11). I doubt if there was any serious hidden agenda for his reusing the music.

With the three Beethoven pieces you mention there is no 'clandestine' use of another composers theme - with op11 Beethoven used the theme's title in the score ('Pria ch'io I'impegno' from a very popular opera by Weigl), with op59 Beethoven was commissioned to write quartets with Russian themes, with the overture another common theme by Handel.

However, more 'covertly', in the trio op70/2 the opening theme of the first movement is pure Handel from a movement from his op6 concertos to my ears. Whether Beethoven heard the Handel music I have no idea, but there are some other Baroque touches in op70/2.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 04-14-2006).]

[robert newman]

Dear Peter,

I have seen only two references to this Frankfurt playbill of 1785 for 'Le Nozze di Figaro' - one of them in an article I read some years ago but did not take details of at the time (being involved in looking at other things), but the second time (this a reminder) mentioned in a letter from the great researcher Giorgio Taboga as recently as last month. He has seen the full text of the playbill and I understand that it has been published, though virtually never been acknowledged or fitted in to the conventional histories of 'Figaro'. I'll try to get the exact wording from Mr Taboga as soon as I can.

The original Swedish opera building in Stockholm (completed 1782 at the time that Kraus was leaving Sweden for his tour of Europe) is further proof of Gustav 3rd's passion for opera. (It is said to have contained stage equipment that was the finest in Europe at the time). And Gustav, being one of the three 'enlightened despots/absolutists' was to receive a special presentation edition of 'Le Nozze di Figaro' in 1785, the first year of its publication as a play and still a year before the opera premiere in Vienna. It is virtually impossible that Kraus could have made his extended stay in Paris (from the summer of 1784 onwards) without being very well aware of Figaro and its progress). I believe the evidence (though much of it circumstantial as must be the case) indicates that Kraus wrote the opera during his European tour and that it was complete enough by late 1784 - details of which would have been available to Gustav 3rd from 1780. And that the score plus the libretto arrived in the hands of Mozart/da Ponte (after possibly some testing of it at Frankfurt am Main in early 1785) by late 1785, which forms the basis of the reports that Mozart/da Ponte were'working on it' from around that same time.

I can only suggest that several things combined to make Vienna (rather than Stockholm or St Petersburg) the venue for the premiere of this opera. Firstly, that the stage management of Mozart's career was already underway long before 1786 and that this opera was a culminating point in such management. Secondly, that the huge debate/controversy over the piece (fuelled by Beaumarchais himself) made the work a subject of great discussion at diplomatic and even governmental level in all 3 venues, with it becoming clear that Vienna was the most 'safe' place where it could/should be premiered. 'Figaro', an Italian opera. We have the refusal of Beaumarchais to accept sponsorship from the Empress Catherine of Russia. And Gustav 3rd was not so experienced in these areas that he would have staged such an Italian opera in Sweden. There were many enemies of the king already in Sweden and by far the safest venue (it was thought) was Vienna. I believe all the lines of evidence suggest that this work was always intended to be staged first in Vienna as a Mozart/da Ponte collaboration - this, at the time, suited both Joseph 2nd, his ideas of Austrian glory and, I believe the aims of the Jesuits also.

Why didn't Kraus claim credit for the work ? Vogler, like Kraus, was a Jesuit and was on a mission, a crusade, that was believed by them to be of the utmost importance - one which had huge political and cultural significance and over which plans had been laid years before. Mozart would be credited (as he had been for years. And since the Jesuits were now largely fuelling the ideas of the Encyclopaedists in France, there was temporarily advantage to the Jesuits and to Joseph 2nd that this work appeared in Mozart's name, in Vienna. The French Prime Minister who had in late 1780 written to King Gustav 3rd of Sweden is described as being hugely responsible for the collapse of any real reform in France - i.e. of precipitating a situation where revolution was oossible - this same man the good friend of Beaumarchais. (In later years Beaumarchais would be arrested with papers from the Bastille which indicated his involvement in the events that led up to the Revolution and the explanations given by him, which concealed his private life as an agent for running arms to the USA etc made it necessary for him to escape from France in 1792).

Vogler's extended stay in Sweden during the last years of Kraus's life (ending shortly after the assassination of Gustav 3rd and the untimely death of Kraus that sane year) further support the view that the two men were involved in this affair.

Mozart and da Ponte would bring glory to musical Austria, the Jesuit Order would score a great victory in further pushing towards a Europe in which they could be restored by the pope, and Mozart himself would (though it contradicted all he ever said or wrote about France and Voltaire etc) be associated in the end with forces that ended in the collapse of the French state and the 'French Revolution'.
Out of that came Napoleon, and from him the restoration of the Jesuit Order in the first decade of the 19th century.

[ASSelby]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Dear Peter,

I have seen only two references to this Frankfurt playbill of 1785 for 'Le Nozze di Figaro' - one of them in an article I read some years ago but did not take details of at the time (being involved in looking at other things), but the second time (this a reminder) mentioned in a letter from the great researcher Giorgio Taboga as recently as last month. He has seen the full text of the playbill and I understand that it has been published, though virtually never been acknowledged or fitted in to the conventional histories of 'Figaro'. I'll try to get the exact wording from Mr Taboga as soon as I can.

The original Swedish opera building in Stockholm (completed 1782 at the time that Kraus was leaving Sweden for his tour of Europe) is further proof of Gustav 3rd's passion for opera. (It is said to have contained stage equipment that was the finest in Europe at the time). And Gustav, being one of the three 'enlightened despots/absolutists' was to receive a special presentation edition of 'Le Nozze di Figaro' in 1785, the first year of its publication as a play and still a year before the opera premiere in Vienna. It is virtually impossible that Kraus could have made his extended stay in Paris (from the summer of 1784 onwards) without being very well aware of Figaro and its progress). I believe the evidence (though much of it circumstantial as must be the case) indicates that Kraus wrote the opera during his European tour and that it was complete enough by late 1784 - details of which would have been available to Gustav 3rd from 1780. And that the score plus the libretto arrived in the hands of Mozart/da Ponte (after possibly some testing of it at Frankfurt am Main in early 1785) by late 1785, which forms the basis of the reports that Mozart/da Ponte were'working on it' from around that same time.

I can only suggest that several things combined to make Vienna (rather than Stockholm or St Petersburg) the venue for the premiere of this opera. Firstly, that the stage management of Mozart's career was already underway long before 1786 and that this opera was a culminating point in such management. Secondly, that the huge debate/controversy over the piece (fuelled by Beaumarchais himself) made the work a subject of great discussion at diplomatic and even governmental level in all 3 venues, with it becoming clear that Vienna was the most 'safe' place where it could/should be premiered. 'Figaro', an Italian opera. We have the refusal of Beaumarchais to accept sponsorship from the Empress Catherine of Russia. And Gustav 3rd was not so experienced in these areas that he would have staged such an Italian opera in Sweden. There were many enemies of the king already in Sweden and by far the safest venue (it was thought) was Vienna. I believe all the lines of evidence suggest that this work was always intended to be staged first in Vienna as a Mozart/da Ponte collaboration - this, at the time, suited both Joseph 2nd, his ideas of Austrian glory and, I believe the aims of the Jesuits also.

Why didn't Kraus claim credit for the work ? Vogler, like Kraus, was a Jesuit and was on a mission, a crusade, that was believed by them to be of the utmost importance - one which had huge political and cultural significance and over which plans had been laid years before. Mozart would be credited (as he had been for years. And since the Jesuits were now largely fuelling the ideas of the Encyclopaedists in France, there was temporarily advantage to the Jesuits and to Joseph 2nd that this work appeared in Mozart's name, in Vienna. The French Prime Minister who had in late 1780 written to King Gustav 3rd of Sweden is described as being hugely responsible for the collapse of any real reform in France - i.e. of precipitating a situation where revolution was oossible - this same man the good friend of Beaumarchais. (In later years Beaumarchais would be arrested with papers from the Bastille which indicated his involvement in the events that led up to the Revolution and the explanations given by him, which concealed his private life as an agent for running arms to the USA etc made it necessary for him to escape from France in 1792).

Vogler's extended stay in Sweden during the last years of Kraus's life (ending shortly after the assassination of Gustav 3rd and the untimely death of Kraus that sane year) further support the view that the two men were involved in this affair.

Mozart and da Ponte would bring glory to musical Austria, the Jesuit Order would score a great victory in further pushing towards a Europe in which they could be restored by the pope, and Mozart himself would (though it contradicted all he ever said or wrote about France and Voltaire etc) be associated in the end with forces that ended in the collapse of the French state and the 'French Revolution'.
Out of that came Napoleon, and from him the restoration of the Jesuit Order in the first decade of the 19th century.

--------------

You must be JOKING, Robert. The Jesuit Order
would REALLY, TRULY ask da Ponte to help it
to its renewed glory!!! My friend, who has been telling me for years that you are playing a joke on us, must be right.

Surely you do not believe that Da Ponte, a converted Jew and an one-time priest who had abandoned Catholicism would be the one
to bring back the glory of the Jesuits.

If this is Mr. Toboga's claim to fame, you better find yourself another mentor. Or perhaps read Da Ponte's memoirs.

Agnes.

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:


Why didn't Kraus claim credit for the work ? Vogler, like Kraus, was a Jesuit and was on a mission, a crusade, that was believed by them to be of the utmost importance - one which had huge political and cultural significance and over which plans had been laid years before. Mozart would be credited (as he had been for years.

Why was Vienna the safest place since the play had already been performed in Paris? As you know the opera is nowhere near as politically sensational. Also as you know Figaro had it's biggest success in Prague, being overshadowed in Vienna by other operas - so much for all the glory and elaborate plot!

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'Man know thyself'

[Hofrat]

Agnes wrote:

You must be JOKING, Robert. The Jesuit Order
would REALLY, TRULY ask da Ponte to help it
to its renewed glory!!! My friend, who has been telling me for years that you are playing a joke on us, must be right.

Surely you do not believe that Da Ponte, a converted Jew and an one-time priest who had abandoned Catholicism would be the one
to bring back the glory of the Jesuits.

If this is Mr. Toboga's claim to fame, you better find yourself another mentor. Or perhaps read Da Ponte's memoirs.

----------------------------------

Dear Agnes;

VERY WELL SPOKEN!!!

Hofrat