'Le Nozze di Figaro' and the 'Mozart' Violin Concertos

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Both composers were quite conservative in many respects, harmonically. But in the case of Mozart, his exquisite choices of instruments, his ability to use rubato in a written form, and his orchestration - it's in these things, surely,where we find and recognise his musical fingerprint.

Robert

I think Haydn and Mozart are quite distinct stylistically in terms of orchestration, harmony and melody. Haydn is I think a far more radical composer than Mozart and it is no surprise that Beethoven learnt a great deal from his music. Actually Haydn is quite bold in his choice of keys, but Mozart has a richer harmonic pallet.

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 04-11-2006).]

[ASSelby]

Originally posted by robert newman:

One woman wrote to me today asking why, if I view the compositional fame of Haydn and Mozart as having been due to composers other than themselves I didn't say anything of the amazing similarities that everyone hears in both Mozart's and Haydn's musical styles. 'Surely', she said, 'you are missing a major point in failing to highlight such a thing when you speak of stylistic matters', etc.

I replied saying that all she wrote was true and that a joke was popular in early 19th century Vienna to the same effect in listeners not knowing who was who. But I argued that, stylistically, Mozart's music is generally more sophisticated as a version of a given piece than that of Haydn.

Of course its truly remarkable that these two giants, whose relations with one another were so close, shared styles so similar in so many respects. Few would deny it. But in searching for what we mean by 'Mozartean' or 'Haydenian' I mean, most of all, things that a music arranger or an orchestrator (rather than a composer as such) uses. I mean that both composers use devices that can and did transform the works of others in to arrangements, and in so consistent a way that we, on hearing them, can even identify Mozart or Haydn because of it.

Both composers were quite conservative in many respects, harmonically. But in the case of Mozart, his exquisite choices of instruments, his ability to use rubato in a written form, and his orchestration - it's in these things, surely,where we find and recognise his musical fingerprint.

Robert

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I am terribly sorry, but I do not understand, Robert. Are you referring to Haydn and Mozart as being the "two giants" or are you referring to
the composers they stole their compositions from, namely Kraus, Luchesi and Mysleviscek?

I am quite confused, I must admit. After writing about this thieving Mozart, this
unworthy Catholic servant of the Jesuits, are you now claiming he was, in fact, a "Musical Giant"?

A.Selby.

[robert newman]

Dear Agnes,

I would describe as a musical 'giant' any musician who has dominated western musical culture for over 2 centuries as has Mozart, Haydn, Bach, Beethoven or many others. In the specific cases of Haydn and Mozart (Mozart now under examination) his status as a 'giant' in that sense is not disputed. As to whether such huge status is actually justified is surely another issue.

The examples to which you refer of Mozart receiving the works of others which he issued in his own name do not in themselves constitute theft if their true composer was willing to allow such things to occur. But it certainly constitutes fraud, in the sense that the compositional reputation and credit for such works has been given exclusively to Mozart.

It was not so long ago Agnes that you (very correctly) reminded me that intellectual property and things such as copyright are really issues which came to the fore in the very late 18th century (Beaumarchais himself pioneering in this area, for example).

I hope that this ends your confusion on this issue although of course it might not end your opinion of Mozart.

Regards


[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 04-11-2006).]

[ASSelby]

Originally posted by robert newman:
Dear Agnes,

I would describe as a musical 'giant' any musician who has dominated western musical culture for over 2 centuries as has Mozart, Haydn, Bach, Beethoven or many others. In the specific cases of Haydn and Mozart (Mozart now under examination) his status as a 'giant' in that sense is not disputed. As to whether such huge status is actually justified is surely another issue.

The examples to which you refer of Mozart receiving the works of others which he issued in his own name do not in themselves constitute theft if their true composer was willing to allow such things to occur. But it certainly constitutes fraud, in the sense that the compositional reputation and credit for such works has been given exclusively to Mozart.

It was not so long ago Agnes that you (very correctly) reminded me that intellectual property and things such as copyright are really issues which came to the fore in the very late 18th century (Beaumarchais himself pioneering in this area, for example).

I hope that this ends your confusion on this issue although of course it might not end your opinion of Mozart.

Regards


[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 04-11-2006).]

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Robert. I await your article about Mozart's fraud with bated breath. Of course, like everyone else on this forum, I do expect you to provide ample evidence to your statements, i.e.

letters confirming that such a fraud took place,

the place where Kraus's original manuscript,
pilfered by Mozart can be found,

What circumstances forced Kraus to give up his best work and reasons for this accompanied by relevant data.

Handwriting analysis is essential as is
paper analysis.

I do expect much more. As a researcher, you must have oodles of data to share with this forum.

You may, of course, be aware that the British Library has an exhibition of Mozart's works. An autograph draft score of "Non so Piu" from Figaro is there for your perusal.

Agnes.

[robert newman]

Dear Agnes,

Your letter surprises me. I wrote yesterday here saying that I could post only the beginning of the article (touching on style) though I can and will finish this Figaro business with the other two parts in due course.

If you and I were sitting at some cafe we could discuss all of this without the need for me to submit articles. And I have a pile of notes on just Figaro - hardly a tiny part of which I've used. The thing is - I got so tied up with answering points and put off balance by other comments that I've had to slow down a little.

I give you my word you will have it, and soon, since there is nothing left but to write it in a condensed, accessible and accurate way - which has taken me a little longer than I thought but not through any great fault.

Whether a Kraus original survives I do not know. It's an interesting question. Not one I can answer.

Whether the original of K622 survives I also do not know. That too is an interesting question and not one I can answer either.

In the meantime, regardless of what might be said, you can be sure that if you and I are both convinced of the greatness of Music there is little for us to argue about. You may see this issue in one light and I in another. I will submit the rest just as soon as I can be happy with it being really representative of what seems to me correct.

Regards

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Peter,

Correct me if I am wrong. Tradition (in words that are cushioned so as not to give offence) says that Joseph Martin Kraus is a plagiarist. It says that he did not write the March in Idomeneo. It says that he, despite being commissioned by the King of Sweden, stole/used/plagiarised the March found in Idomeneo from 1781. Is that not true ?

Dear Robert;

I have been having a hard time with the above quoted paragraph from your post. In Mozart's time, composers used each other's themes. It was considered as a high form of flattery. Many times the original composer was given credit as in "Variations on a theme by Haydn" or "Variations on a theme by Paganini." Many times the theme is so popular, it is taken for granted that the audience knows it and credit is not given at all. An example of this would be "Introduction, theme, variations, and rondo," which was the original title Beethoven gave to his "Kakadu Variations." And lastly, some times the theme's originator is not known. Beethoven used the same anonymous theme found in four different compositions: Counterdances, Creatures of Prometheus, Eroica variations, and the Eroica Symphony.

No one ever claimed that Beethoven plagiarized. Nor did Kraus in his use of a theme from "Idomeneo."


Hofrat

[Rod]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
Beethoven used the same anonymous theme found in four different compositions: Counterdances, Creatures of Prometheus, Eroica variations, and the Eroica Symphony.

No one ever claimed that Beethoven plagiarized. Nor did Kraus in his use of a theme from "Idomeneo."


Hofrat

If the theme is 'anonymous' is it not reasonable to suspect the author is the composer himself?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[robert newman]

Dear Hofrat,

I'd like to quote most of what you wrote, and give comment as follows -

1. '' In Mozart's time, composers used each other's themes. It was considered as a high form of flattery''

True. But in this particular case how is Mozart being 'flattered' in Sweden by Kraus using music from an opera produced a handful of times years before elsewhere - music that was not even in print at this time anywhere, and in a country where the works of Mozart (even the most popular) were virtually unknown ? I find the term 'flattery' lacking any real basis in this case.

You agree that 'many times the original composer was given credit and that many times 'the theme is so popular it is taken for granted the audience knows it and credit is not given at all'. Yes, certainly. But how does that have relevance in the Kraus situation of 1789 in Sweden ? Furthermore, Kraus does not merely allude to the March, but creates a longer and even more ornate version - all without any reference to Mozart and heard by an audience who knew nothing whatsoever of 'Idomeneo' ?.

2. ''No one ever claimed that Beethoven plagiarized. Nor did Kraus in his use of a theme from "Idomeneo."

I entirely agree. You know 'Idomeneo' ? Take away the March and the entire work is diminished, is it not ? It's perfectly true that nobody has said outright that Kraus is a plagiarist - not in so many words - but what, exactly, was Kraus doing in this piece, part of a state commission, a high profile commission, for the King of Sweden, if, in fact, this March is one of Mozart's ? Such a thing makes no sense but we believe it because our options force us to classify this music as an example of 'borrowing', 'quoting from', 'alluding to', refering to' - none of them logical/appropriate to a Swedish audience of 1789 if, as we agree they were ignorant of the opera from which it was supposedly derived, were being presented it for the first time by a resident German composer in Sweden, and had no reason to believe anything other than the fact that he, Kraus, was its true composer ? Add to this the fact that Kraus writes nothing to credit Mozart with this March, not then, nor at any time in the remaining 3 years of his short life.

So, although I accept your points within the usual framework of knowledgeable audiences, flattery, and musical allusions, I do not see how, as things stand, Kraus can escape the charge that he is here a plagiarist beyond reasonable doubt. Not, that is, unless some other explanation is offered - the sort that I would like you to consider.

Regards

Robert




. Many times the original composer was given credit as in "Variations on a theme by Haydn" or "Variations on a theme by Paganini." Many times the theme is so popular, it is taken for granted that the audience knows it and credit is not given at all. An example of this would be "Introduction, theme, variations, and rondo," which was the original title Beethoven gave to his "Kakadu Variations." And lastly, some times the theme's originator is not known. Beethoven used the same anonymous theme found in four different compositions: Counterdances, Creatures of Prometheus, Eroica variations, and the Eroica Symphony.

No one ever claimed that Beethoven plagiarized. Nor did Kraus in his use of a theme from "Idomeneo."




[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 04-12-2006).]

[robert newman]

Dear Rod,

You write, 'If the theme is 'anonymous' is it not reasonable to suspect the author is the composer himself'?

Yes, it's entirely reasonable. But its entirely reasonable that Joseph Martin Kraus, under commission in 1789 to write this music for the King of Sweden at a great event of state, would be credited with being its composer. It is not reasonable to suspect otherwise - and Kraus gave us no reason to think otherwise.

Rgds


p.s. What would have happened in Sweden if this March, written in 1789 by Kraus in music for a Swedish state event, had become hugely popular in that country ? Consider the implications for Kraus if, in fact, the March is actually one by Mozart - a March that Kraus specifically does not attribute to Mozart and nor should have used in such a commission if it was by Mozart.



[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 04-12-2006).]

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by robert newman:

But in this particular case how is Mozart being 'flattered' in Sweden by Kraus using music from an opera produced a handful of times years before elsewhere - music that was not even in print at this time anywhere, and in a country where the works of Mozart (even the most popular) were virtually unknown ? I find the term 'flattery' lacking any real basis in this case.

You agree that 'many times the original composer was given credit and that many times 'the theme is so popular it is taken for granted the audience knows it and credit is not given at all'. Yes, certainly. But how does that have relevance in the Kraus situation of 1789 in Sweden ? Furthermore, Kraus does not merely allude to the March, but creates a longer and even more ornate version - all without any reference to Mozart and heard by an audience who knew nothing whatsoever of 'Idomeneo' ?.

Dear Robert;

Let us take another example. Beethoven composed the overture "Consecration of House" in which he uses a theme taken from Handel's "Alexander's Feast." What Beethoven did with that theme is light years above and beyond what Handel did with it. It is far more dynamic and ornate, and in addition, Beethoven did not allude to it in the score or at the premiere. How many Viennese heard that Handel opera at that time? How many of them knew Beethoven was using that Handel theme? How many of us have heard the original Handel piece today? How many Viennese had access to the score at the time of Beethoven? Yet, Beethoven paid homage to Handel by using the theme.

And furthermore, Mozart used the same Handel theme in a piano concerto, albeit a fleeting reference! (Please do not ask me which as I am not at home where my sources are located). Nonetheless, who would have known this at Mozart's time? Mozart did not allude to it either. But by using a theme by Handel, Mozart is paying homage.

As I said in my post, the use of another composer's theme in the 18th and 19th century was a for of flattery or homage, and it was widely done. It does not constitute plagiarism. I do hope that Kraus' use of the Idomeneo march is not the lynch pin in your Figaro theory.

Hofrat

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Rod:
If the theme is 'anonymous' is it not reasonable to suspect the author is the composer himself?

Dear Rod;

What I meant to say, the Eroica theme that Beethoven used in four of his compositions was originally written by an anonymous composer.

Hofrat

[robert newman]

Dear Hofrat,

Dear Hofrat,

I think the examples you use are again different. In the case of Beethoven's 'Consecration of the House' the audience would have been lovers of opera and would almost surely have realised this overture was stylistically an allusion to Handel.

But there is all the difference in the world between alluding to or quoting from a composer and using an entire March - one that is indisputably the clone of or the parent of that in Idomeneo.

No, it isn't the lynch pin of my theory but it seems to me that this problem is intractable without us considering the issue the other way round - that Kraus knew Mozart in 1780/1. It explains far more than to assume vice-versa.

I agree there are limits to circumstantial evidence (these I see are the limits of our own common sense). But as things stand we already have strong circumstantial evidence that there really was a Kraus/Mozart relationship. I confidently predict that by the time we stop talking about Figaro you will see the circumstantial evidence of such a relationship great enough to regard it as true beyond reasonable doubt.

Anyway, best regards

[Rod]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
Dear Robert;

Let us take another example. Beethoven composed the overture "Consecration of House" in which he uses a theme taken from Handel's "Alexander's Feast." What Beethoven did with that theme is light years above and beyond what Handel did with it. It is far more dynamic and ornate, and in addition, Beethoven did not allude to it in the score or at the premiere...
Hofrat

As a Handel enthusiast it is clear to me why Beethoven chose this particular theme of Handels, for H used it on many occasions and any musical enthusiast of Beethoven's day would surely have recognised it. In addition Beethoven openly discussed the production of a Handelian overture, so there was no deception on Beethoven's part. I have various versions of Handel's use of the theme it on CD, and I presented here a symphony from the Chandos Anthems as an example. Beethoven uses not only the dance like theme but also the descending 4 note figure in the bass also found in the Handel piece.

Handel may not have made as epic use of this music as Beethoven did, but this does not mean that H was incabable of composing an epic overture in the fugal style - I need only direct you to the magnificent overture of Judas Maccabaeus.

Back to Beethoven's use of the Eroica theme - I would be interested to know why you believe the humble contredance music to be other than Beethoven's?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 04-12-2006).]

[robert newman]

It's not me who is saying this. I don't believe it either.

Robert

[Cetto von Cronstorff]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
Beethoven used the same anonymous theme found in four different compositions: Counterdances, Creatures of Prometheus, Eroica variations, and the Eroica Symphony.

It is well known that the Eroica theme originates from the ouverture of Mozart's 'Bastien und Bastienne'.