'Le Nozze di Figaro' and the 'Mozart' Violin Concertos

[robert newman]

Dear Agnes,

You may not agree with me. You may in fact be able to correct me where I go wrong. But I am in the process of writing such an article to this site, one I want to submit here around Tuesday evening. If you would be kind enough to wait until then you will have an attempted reply to these and perhaps other questions. And, if you are not satisfied with the article you can of course ask for justification of what I've written or can correct me, as you think fit.

This seems to me a reasonable way to go about this and I hope you agree ?

Robert

[DavidO]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Dear Hofrat,

Your question is an obvious and good one. I plan to write two or perhaps three articles in the next few weeks which will deal with this and other issues. I entirely agree that on the surface (i.e. at a documentary level) we see nothing that would support Kraus being deeply involved in writing 'Le Nozze di Figaro'.

But this curious theory (as I've indicated earlier today) is in my view best put forward by approaching these issues from a completely different angle and so I will try to bring all the issues together in these forthcoming posts. (I hope to have part one of this ready within a week).

Robert, favor me with your opinion on the hypothesis I hold that Bacon wrote the "Figaro" music & Edward de Vere wrote the libretto.

Eagerly awaiting your encouragement. . . .

[Peter]

Originally posted by Selby A:

There is a "signature" to all composers' works. When you turn on your car radio in the middle of a performance, you say to yourself, "Ah, this is Mozart". The same applies to Haydn and Beethoven and even
modern composers.

What is Kraus's "signature"? I do not know it nor do I ever remember seeing an opera composed by this worthy man. Was The Marriage of Figaro, so very Mozartean, a one off composition by Kraus? Or are there many other operas composed by Kraus of comparable beauty?

Agnes.

Dear Agnes,

You are quite right to highlight the musical aspect of all this. What Robert fails to address so far is the fact that a great composer has a unique voice - yes it is possible to imitate, but I am not aware of any 'great' works by these imitators. Yet Robert will have us believe that a whole series of different composers were responsible for Mozart's major symphonies, operas and concerti, Haydn's symphonies and masses, Beethoven's early cantatas and piano quartets. He will also have us believe that the whole musical establishment since then have colluded in a massive conspiracy with the Jesuits to promote solely the music of Joseph Haydn and Mozart. This has apparently fooled not only musicologists but the greatest musical minds ever - Beethoven, Wagner, Berlioz, Brahms - all were apparently 'taken in' or in Beethoven's case actually compliant in this conspiracy. Aside from his complete lack of documented evidence, the musical aspect alone condemns his arguments before he even begins his next tome. Kraus's best known opera 'Proserpina' falls short of Gluck, let alone Mozart.

Soon we shall have Robert's summing up, but it has taken 5 pages here for him to invent his theory as he goes along - this is evident from his questioning of Hofrat on several matters, all of which have not come out in his favour, but were obviously originally intended as part of his thesis.

No need to respond to this Robert - hold your guns until Tuesday when you can prove everybody wrong and claim your rightful place in musical history!

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 04-08-2006).]

[Cetto von Cronstorff]

Originally posted by robert newman:

please ask again and I will obtain for you confirmation or otherwise that Herr/Mr Angermuller was employed for a time at Salzburg University.

He was never employed there. Your utter incompetence causes you to mix up the University "Mozarteum" with the regular University of Salzburg. But I think that the members of this forum clearly get the point. Your ignorance in details is very telling and sufficiently proves the lack of any expertise.

[Selby A]

Originally posted by Peter:
Dear Agnes,

You are quite right to highlight the musical aspect of all this. What Robert fails to address so far is the fact that a great composer has a unique voice - yes it is possible to imitate, but I am not aware of any 'great' works by these imitators. Yet Robert will have us believe that a whole series of different composers were responsible for Mozart's major symphonies, operas and concerti, Haydn's symphonies and masses, Beethoven's early cantatas and piano quartets. He will also have us believe that the whole musical establishment since then have colluded in a massive conspiracy with the Jesuits to promote solely the music of Joseph Haydn and Mozart. This has apparently fooled not only musicologists but the greatest musical minds ever - Beethoven, Wagner, Berlioz, Brahms - all were apparently 'taken in' or in Beethoven's case actually compliant in this conspiracy. Aside from his complete lack of documented evidence, the musical aspect alone condemns his arguments before he even begins his next tome. Kraus's best known opera 'Proserpina' falls short of Gluck, let alone Mozart.

Soon we shall have Robert's summing up, but it has taken 5 pages here for him to invent his theory as he goes along - this is evident from his questioning of Hofrat on several matters, all of which have not come out in his favour, but were obviously originally intended as part of his thesis.

No need to respond to this Robert - hold your guns until Tuesday when you can prove everybody wrong and claim your rightful place in musical history!

-----------

Dear Peter,

The only worrying aspect of Robert's postings is the prospect of young students coming across his hypothesis. One of my grandchildren, a boy of 14 years has already found your site as he had to report
on some aspects of Beethoven's life.

He knows my interest in Mozart and called me immediately he saw Robert's reports. I was there to set him right as did his high school professor the very next day. However, how many grandmothers have spent 20 years in Mozartean research and how many professors would just simply fail their students if, by chance, they took Robert's writings seriously?

It is for this reason only that I have bothered to reply to Robert. I believe the computer is an educational tool and students should be able to find correct and substantiated information.

Kind regards,
Agnes.

[gprengel]

It is really interesting to see how many postings we have regarding this topic. Today I was listening to a number of Krauss' symphonies written between 1782 and 1792 - well, they are not bad. They are about on the level of Haydn's symphonies No 40 - 49 but , my goodness, how can someone ever come to the idea that the composer of these Krauss' symphonies could be the same who wrote the Figaro or the violin concertos??? The quality difference is so huge! In Krauss's symphonies for example there is hardly any special use woodwinds which is characteristic for Mozart's intimate beauty, ...
I find this whole discussion pretty ridiculous

[Peter]

Originally posted by Selby A:
-----------

Dear Peter,

The only worrying aspect of Robert's postings is the prospect of young students coming across his hypothesis. One of my grandchildren, a boy of 14 years has already found your site as he had to report
on some aspects of Beethoven's life.

He knows my interest in Mozart and called me immediately he saw Robert's reports. I was there to set him right as did his high school professor the very next day. However, how many grandmothers have spent 20 years in Mozartean research and how many professors would just simply fail their students if, by chance, they took Robert's writings seriously?

It is for this reason only that I have bothered to reply to Robert. I believe the computer is an educational tool and students should be able to find correct and substantiated information.

Kind regards,
Agnes.

I quite agree Agnes and I am very grateful for your informed contributions to counter this sort of thing. However I have allowed Robert to have his say for two reasons - firstly I believe he is sincere in his beliefs and secondly I don't believe in censorship which is why I haven't gone down the road the Mozart forum took in banning him.

Ironically this whole debate has also been educational in that many unknown composers such as Luchesi have been 'rediscovered'. Undoubtedly Luchesi was a more significant figure at Bonn than is generally realised, though not I'm sure in the way suggested by Robert.



------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Selby A:
Its a simple question. If Kraus managed to compose The Marriage of Figaro, surely there must be great operas composed by him
and performed all over the world's opera houses.

There is a "signature" to all composers' works. When you turn on your car radio in the middle of a performance, you say to yourself, "Ah, this is Mozart". The same applies to Haydn and Beethoven and even
modern composers.

What is Kraus's "signature"? I do not know it nor do I ever remember seeing an opera composed by this worthy man. Was The Marriage of Figaro, so very Mozartean, a one off composition by Kraus? Or are there many other operas composed by Kraus of comparable beauty?

Agnes.

Dear Agnes;

You will have your chance to see an opera by Kraus this summer (in Stuttgart, I believe). "Aeneus i Cartago" by Kraus will be performed.


Hofrat

[Selby A]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
Dear Agnes;

You will have your chance to see an opera by Kraus this summer (in Stuttgart, I believe). "Aeneus i Cartago" by Kraus will be performed.


Hofrat

----------

Dear Hofrat,

Unless the opera will be recorded, I will
not hear it. I live in Sydney, Australia.
However, I will look for the recording.

Thank you.

Regards,
Agnes.

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Selby A:
----------

Dear Hofrat,

Unless the opera will be recorded, I will
not hear it. I live in Sydney, Australia.
However, I will look for the recording.

Thank you.

Regards,
Agnes.

Dear Agnes;

Perhaps the performing company will also record "Aeneus i Cartago." I know that two of Kraus' operas were recorded:
1. Soliman II.
2. Proserpin.


Hofrat

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Selby A:
----------

Dear Hofrat,

Unless the opera will be recorded, I will
not hear it. I live in Sydney, Australia.
However, I will look for the recording.

Thank you.

Regards,
Agnes.

Dear Agnes;

May I add, Naxos has recorded four CD's of symphonies by Kraus, good performances with a pocket-friendly price. And recently, they came out with a CD of his piano music.


Hofrat

[robert newman]

Dear Gprengel.

I'm interested in your view that the symphonies of Kraus in the decade of so before his death (1792) are on the same musical level as Haydn's Symphonies 40-49. (Oh, by the way I haven't attributed Mozart's violin concertos to Kraus and nor has anyone else. Please see the start of this post).

I agree that a great characteristic of a Mozart symphony is his use of the wind instruments. These can transform a piece and did so in symphonies such as the 'Haffner'. Mozart 40 exists in two versions.

But which came first, Mozart's sophisticated arrangements or an audience with ears to hear them ? Just this morning I was listening to a virtually unknown piece by JS Bach (unknown to most music lovers, that is), his Fantasia in G Minor BWV920 for solo keyboard. In that unique Bach piece is more than all Beethoven ever wrote for piano. Is this my opinion or is it a fact ?

I personally believe that by the 1780's the symphony had arrived at a degree of such sophistication that audiences who could appreciate the new works of these great composers were quite rare. Mozart, as an arranger, could and did exploit these new works. This view of Mozart as an arranger of symphonies is unsual but I think it's right.

Mozart's 'style' is surely close to perfect in the Coronation Mass, K317. In fact I think before this Mass Mozart had no real style. That single work was a vision of music he used for the rest of his life. I base this on quite a bit of evidence. Talking recently of Idomeneo, it was a score of the Coronation Mass that he took to Munich when he was under immense pressure to finish it.

I do not know the whole story of this Mass. It represents a great moment in music, for sure. But so does Bach's Fantasia in G Minor.

Mozart as an arranger/orchestrator. Its this aspect that I think has been hugely underappreciated. So much that it can be said it was his greatest talent.

[Rod]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Just this morning I was listening to a virtually unknown piece by JS Bach (unknown to most music lovers, that is), his Fantasia in G Minor BWV920 for solo keyboard. In that unique Bach piece is more than all Beethoven ever wrote for piano. Is this my opinion or is it a fact ?

I haven't heard it but from my experience of Bach fantasies I suggest it is your opinion. It is interesting that Bach's ownership of this piece is doubtful from my research (and doubted by more than one source). Another unappreciated mystery composer perhaps, Robert?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[robert newman]

I'm not surprised that Bach's composing of the G Minor Fantasia has been questioned. It's one of those astonishing works. Like 'Figaro'.

[Rod]

Originally posted by robert newman:


I'm not surprised that Bach's composing of the G Minor Fantasia has been questioned. It's one of those astonishing works. Like 'Figaro'.

But I've listened to some of the 'undoubted' fantasies of Bach and was not particularly enlightened. If the piece in question is better than any keyboard piece we have by Beethoven, it leaves only one conclusion - the mystery composer must be Beethoven!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin