'Le Nozze di Figaro' and the 'Mozart' Violin Concertos

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Quite so Rod and another poster also alluded to this - to my ears (though I am far from being an authority) the music is 'Mozartean' through and through. From what I have heard of Kraus (fine though it is) it is not on this level and it doesn't 'sound' the same. As Haydn is quite distinct from Mozart so is Kraus. I have the same impression with the Beethoven cantatas Robert disputes, to me as Brahms observed they are Beethoven!

Yes of course the canatas are Beethoven's, as are the piano quartets he also disputes. This is clear from the music, although the circumstantial evidence Robert offered here amounted to almost nothing in any case.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[robert newman]

The works to which Rod is refering have never been given opus numbers in Beethoven studies.
There's a quite lengthy correspondence on these works here on this very forum.

Gentlemen, you are free to attribute them to the great (and young) Beethoven as you please. Others are free to disagree, pointing out that the documented loss of Kapellmeister Andrea Luchesi's chamber works is at least as valid a candidate for these Bonn works as anyone else. But if you wish to have the arguments yet again please ask. There are works which have been wrongly credited to Beethoven in his youth which are no great issue - unless of course you wish to portray them as dogmatically Beethoven's. I do not and have explained at some length why I do not.

Have we not been fair in this issue ?

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:

The works to which Rod is refering have never been given opus numbers in Beethoven studies.
There's a quite lengthy correspondence on these works here on this very forum.

Gentlemen, you are free to attribute them to the great (and young) Beethoven as you please. Others are free to disagree, pointing out that the documented loss of Kapellmeister Andrea Luchesi's chamber works is at least as valid a candidate for these Bonn works as anyone else. But if you wish to have the arguments yet again please ask. There are works which have been wrongly credited to Beethoven in his youth which are no great issue - unless of course you wish to portray them as dogmatically Beethoven's. I do not and have explained at some length why I do not.

Have we not been fair in this issue ?

Are you suggesting that all Beethoven WoO pieces are suspect? There are many lost works by many composers (including Beethoven), especially from the 18th century and before - Luchesi is not an exceptional case.

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'Man know thyself'

[robert newman]

I think you know perfectly well I am not suggesting that all works under that classification are not by Beethoven. I am suggesting the very opposite - that the vast majority are certainly by Beethoven. But in these few of which we are speaking (and they come from Bonn) there has been no consensus even within Beethoven scholarship. That is plain fact.

Beethoven's Kapellmeister was Andrea Luchesi. He is known to have written these sort of works - now lost. Therefore, by any fair reckoning, he is a candidate for authorship of these pieces, written, as they are, not in either Beethoven's hand or that of Luchesi, but in the hand of a Bonn copyist.

The issue of the two cantatas (for the death of Joseph and for the coronation of Leopold) has been discussed here at some length and if you have new evidence that supports them being attributed to Beethoven I will of course immediately accept it. Until then, you know my position and you know why I hold it - that these are two cantatas written by the Kapellmeister in the course of his official duty.

Regards

[Gurn Blanston]

Robert,
FYI, vis-a-vis Leopold dunning Wolfgang 2.5 years ex post facto for the expenses of the Paris trip. Unquestionably this is true. There are letters that state it quite explicitly. Possible motivations that have been postulated include such as Leopold was doing this in order to maintain control that was obviously slipping (and indeed DID slip) away.
Cheers,
Gurn

[robert newman]

Dear Gurn,

Thank you for your post. So two and a half years after the event Mozart's father billed his son for the expenses of the trip he took with his late mother (Leopold's wife) ? I want to see the evidence.

Secondly, we still await any sort of proof that Mozart was paid for writing 'Idomeneo'. I want to see the evidence for this also. (The payment to the librettist exists).

Thirdly, if Mozart was paid for 'Idomeneo' he would of course have been paid himself first and not Leopold. The payment would have been to Wolfgang Mozart. Yes ? In that case we have two chances of proving that Mozart was paid -

a) References to such a payment in the correspondence which (Agnes Selby says) exists.

b) Records of payment to Mozart in the accounts of Munich.

I stand by my view that no such payment was ever made for Idomeneo to Wolfgang Mozart. If Agnes Selby can show otherwise, fine. I believe she cannot show such evidence because it does not exist.

[Frank H]

Originally posted by robert newman:



Secondly, we still await any sort of proof that Mozart was paid for writing 'Idomeneo'. I want to see the evidence for this also. (The payment to the librettist exists).

I stand by my view that no such payment was ever made for Idomeneo to Wolfgang Mozart. If Agnes Selby can show otherwise, fine. I believe she cannot show such evidence because it does not exist.

Dear Robert

I repeat my question from many posts ago.

Is there any evidence that anyone else (apart from the librettist) was paid for Idomeneo?

Frank

[Rod]

Robert to convince anybody you're going to have to find proof from within the score regardless of who signed what and who could have been where or who was paid when etc etc. You seem to have little interest in this musical element, as was also the case with your Beethoven theory.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Selby A]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Dear Gurn,

Thank you for your post. So two and a half years after the event Mozart's father billed his son for the expenses of the trip he took with his late mother (Leopold's wife) ? I want to see the evidence.

Secondly, we still await any sort of proof that Mozart was paid for writing 'Idomeneo'. I want to see the evidence for this also. (The payment to the librettist exists).

Thirdly, if Mozart was paid for 'Idomeneo' he would of course have been paid himself first and not Leopold. The payment would have been to Wolfgang Mozart. Yes ? In that case we have two chances of proving that Mozart was paid -

a) References to such a payment in the correspondence which (Agnes Selby says) exists.

b) Records of payment to Mozart in the accounts of Munich.

I stand by my view that no such payment was ever made for Idomeneo to Wolfgang Mozart. If Agnes Selby can show otherwise, fine. I believe she cannot show such evidence because it does not exist.

--------------

Robeeeert! In the words of the German poet
Hans Johst: "Whenever I hear the word CULTURE, I release the safety-catch on my Browning".

I am at that very point now. Supplant the word "culture" with the word "Mozart", and I stand with Hans Johst with my Browning pointed.

NOW THEN, ROBERT AND FOR THE LAST TIME:

1. Had you read my book you would have been able to follow Mozart on his journey to Paris, leaving Salzburg on September 23, 1777. I do not know THE EXACT TIME OF DEPARTURE.

2. Mozart and his mother stopped in Augsburg where Mozart had a bit of fun with his cousin, Maria Thekla, also known as Basle. This bit of fun resulted in a terrible headache for Stefan Zweig who referred Mozart's subsequent letters to Basle to Sigmund Freud in 1931. This should interest you Robert, because you could build yet another conspiracy theory on
the letters to Basle. Perhaps all the naughty things said in these letters were just a code for a monumental Jesuit uprising or the predictions of Hitler
in another century.

3. Mozart left for Munich on November 5, 1780. His father and sister followed him to Munich and when Mozart departed in haste
for Vienna, father Leopold was there to collect the payment for the opera.

All this information is available for your delectation in the Mozarteum's archives.

It is also available in letters from Mozart to his father. Having left Munich in a hurry at the behest of the Archbishop Colloredo, we learn from Mozart's letters
that his father collected the money for the opera "Idemeneo" (composed by Myslevischek/Luchesi/ Kraus) and did not give a penny farthing to his son. This was due to the debts Leopold incurred when
he sent his son, Wolfgang Mozart, on
the above mentioned journey to Paris.
I suppose, Hagenauer was breathing down
Leopold's neck for the return of the
borrowed money.

Robert, I hope it is all clear now. You don't even have to buy my book, the British Library bought 6 copies in 2001.
You will see that many German letters from Mozart to father are translated therein.
These letters were published in Bauer & Deutsch.

Again, I would recommend you read Emily Anderson's translation of Mozart family letters for a better understanding of
Mozart and his family.

I am also very happy to hear I caused you some laughter. It must have been a rare, jolly moment.

I will now close with the words of A. D. Hope:

"Some Caliban of Culture, some absurd
Messiah of the Paranoiac State".

Selby A.
----------------------

[robert newman]

Dear Agnes,

With such postings laughter comes more and more easily to me.

Please tell us how in the name of all that is good the letter you have just posted answers the specific questions asked repeatedly here of you on Idomeneo and the alleged payment to Leopold by Mozart of its fee for the trip to Paris of 2 1/2 years prior ??????

At the risk of seeming uncharitable everyone (I mean everyone) who has studied Mozart's life and career for any period of time knows the date he and his mother left for Paris and the date when he returned to Salzburg. What, for us, is the relevance of this stuff in between ? Please do explain - I'm so confused that I confess the relevance has escaped me.

I still wait from you specific source references to your claim that Mozart was paid by Munich for Idomeneo. I still also wait for the promised proofs that his earnings from that opera were paid to Leopold for the Paris trip which Mozart took with his mother fully 2 1/2 years prior. Not even a child could miss seeing that you are just leading us round in circles.

I'm glad you've written a book. God only knows how you approached answers to straight questions before you wrote it. Has that skill of yours improved since you wrote it ?? Please, please, can you provide this forum with your promised references in answer to these questions ?

Dear Agnes. Let me help you. Who would wish to cause unecessary suffering on a fellow Mozartean ?

1. The librettist of Idomeneo is recorded in Munich as having been paid 90 Gulden for the libretto.

2. Contrary to your belief, NO record exists at Munich of Mozart being paid for composing this opera. If you show otherwise I agree here and now to stop telling you that you are talking nonsense.

3. The only comment Leopold makes on Mozart's financial outcome from Idomeneo is where he says it would be better for Mozart to keep the score for himself. That of course could not happen since the opera was at this time the property of the Elector.

3. The evidence indicates Mozart was in a complete mess in the months leading up to the premiere of Idomeneo. He was far behind schedule and hardly profited from Idomeneo when it was finally staged. Such were his expenses in sorting out his disorganised self. He was so disorganised that he had to leave Salzburg for Munich in late 1780 with still little finished of the work. Munich was not happy with this situation. Travel and other things cost him time and money.

4. Contrary to your promised evidence Leopold did NOT bill him for the Paris trip 2 1/2 years before. Mozart had stupidly done virtually nothing with this opera commission and was panicking to get it finished. The Munich authorities were not happy with this situation and it ended as a financial disaster for Mozart.

If you can, even now, provide us with your promised evidence of Mozart's payment from Munich, with evidence of this same payment being grabbed by Leopold for a bill related to 2 1/2 years prior I will marvel. It will will represent the equivalent of the faithful having seen smoke rising up the Vatican chimmney and the end of the agony.

You have already achieved one miracle for having turned Idomeneo in to a comic opera. A few more may grant you canonisation from high places. What a prospect !

[Selby A]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Dear Agnes,

With such postings laughter comes more and more easily to me.

Please tell us how in the name of all that is good the letter you have just posted answers the specific questions asked repeatedly here of you on Idomeneo and the alleged payment to Leopold by Mozart of its fee for the trip to Paris of 2 1/2 years prior ??????

At the risk of seeming uncharitable everyone (I mean everyone) who has studied Mozart's life and career for any period of time knows the date he and his mother left for Paris and the date when he returned to Salzburg. What, for us, is the relevance of this stuff in between ? Please do explain - I'm so confused that I confess the relevance has escaped me.

I still wait from you specific source references to your claim that Mozart was paid by Munich for Idomeneo. I still also wait for the promised proofs that his earnings from that opera were paid to Leopold for the Paris trip which Mozart took with his mother fully 2 1/2 years prior. Not even a child could miss seeing that you are just leading us round in circles.

I'm glad you've written a book. God only knows how you approached answers to straight questions before you wrote it. Has that skill of yours improved since you wrote it ?? Please, please, can you provide this forum with your promised references in answer to these questions ?

Dear Agnes. Let me help you. Who would wish to cause unecessary suffering on a fellow Mozartean ?

1. The librettist of Idomeneo is recorded in Munich as having been paid 90 Gulden for the libretto.

2. Contrary to your belief, NO record exists at Munich of Mozart being paid for composing this opera. If you show otherwise I agree here and now to stop telling you that you are talking nonsense.

3. The only comment Leopold makes on Mozart's financial outcome from Idomeneo is where he says it would be better for Mozart to keep the score for himself. That of course could not happen since the opera was at this time the property of the Elector.

3. The evidence indicates Mozart was in a complete mess in the months leading up to the premiere of Idomeneo. He was far behind schedule and hardly profited from Idomeneo when it was finally staged. Such were his expenses in sorting out his disorganised self. He was so disorganised that he had to leave Salzburg for Munich in late 1780 with still little finished of the work. Munich was not happy with this situation. Travel and other things cost him time and money.

4. Contrary to your promised evidence Leopold did NOT bill him for the Paris trip 2 1/2 years before. Mozart had stupidly done virtually nothing with this opera commission and was panicking to get it finished. The Munich authorities were not happy with this situation and it ended as a financial disaster for Mozart.

If you can, even now, provide us with your promised evidence of Mozart's payment from Munich, with evidence of this same payment being grabbed by Leopold for a bill related to 2 1/2 years prior I will marvel. It will will represent the equivalent of the faithful having seen smoke rising up the Vatican chimmney and the end of the agony.

You have already achieved one miracle for having turned Idomeneo in to a comic opera. A few more may grant you canonisation from high places. What a prospect !

----------------

Robert, you are deliberately misconstruing my replies to you. I have given you the dates of Mozart's departure to Paris. I have given you the date of his trip to Munich for Idemenoe. I told you that Leopold Mozart was paid for the opera and witheld the money from Mozart to pay for the trip undertaken by Mozart to Paris.

What else can I say. Are you reading in my letters that the trip to Paris followed the trip to Munich? You know that is not what I said. I said that after Mozart's haste to depart to Vienna at the behest of his employer, his father colelcted the money.

As I said to you on many occasions, you should gain archival knowledge at the Mozarteum's library and not allow your immagination wander aimlessly.

Now! Basta! I leave the limelight to you and I hope, for your sake, that you can stay on top of this for 1000 postings.
It is all, it seems, you have left in your lonely life.

Enough,
Agnes.

[robert newman]

Dear Agnes,

We must take it that you, who lecture us on evidence are not really bothered to do so on these specific points. Fine. You are at least being consistent.

I am far from lonely. I have real choices about my time but have decided to persevere in seeing these posts through until the Figaro matter is posted (early next week). What a waste of time that I should need to post so repeatedly on the very same fruitless requests for your evidence.

Robert

[agent-K007]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Dear Agnes Selby and Agent 007,

The theme of 'Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star' cannot be credited to Mozart. He produced only a set of variations to it. Is it not an old French nursery rhyme that Mozart used ?

You can safely exclude that particular theme from your list of his achievements.

A technicallity...

[agent-K007]

Originally posted by robert newman:
Dear Special Agent 007,

'Il mio tesoro intanto' - I didn't write - not due to negligence but simply that a few months ago I lost a lot of data including addresses, emails, and so on. You know how incompetent I can be with wretched computers Not a day passes without being reminded of my fallibility and mortality !!! Fortunately, I scribble notes (though without indexes most of the time) and saved what might otherwise have been lost. But now I do not have your email address. So, you see, HOW could I write to you, most Mozartean maiden ? Could I say, 'Hi, it's your good friend Robert - do you..just maybe.... remember me' ? Goodness, what would you think if I'd written that ? You could simply have said, 'Who is this ? I don't know anybody of so common a name who is the slightest bit important to me - or 'I must say this correspondent is rather informal and has said some potent things, though I confess I have not the remotest idea from where his boldness comes' - and I in the meantime would have waited and waited without any reply. And so, my dear and true friend, our friendship - no our entire destiny - was until this very day in electronic limbo - a fate worse that death and, (who knows ?) ten or even eleven times worse than life !

Now I send you and you alone twenty goldfish, twelve small peaches, three large onions, and a gallon of Hock with two glasses - for you and me. Plus an active squirrel complete with hazlenuts and a parrot who is well versed in Mozartean arias.

A terrible loss. I'm inconsolable. And so, you see, I never did write to my best, nicest, most favourite lady agent in all the world. It's so unfair. And what do you suppose I've done since we last spoke ? Nothing - nothing at all - nothing whatsoever - it's terrible.

Do me the kind favour sweet Fraulein of writing, asp. If you too have lost my address, well, then, 007, I must and will write to your site. Or, if plain words and ciphers fail, leave a message in a rock, as is the fashion these days in Russia amongst those who speak English.

In answer to your questions, yes, wherever there is Mozart there is laughter and sunshine and life. I believe, I honestly believe you will not be offended that your hero is/was an ordinary man. Sort of inspiring really, is it not. But enough, or I will be found guilty of heresy.

Luchesi was a hugely gifted man (like Mozart) but nobody suggests he wrote hundreds of Mozart works.

Now, dearest Fraulein, a hundred creamcakes, and twenty pumpkins - and with sighs and blushes voila (allegro molto vivace) for two violas.

Newman


[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 04-03-2006).]

Dear Robert,

If you are referring to my friend, Daisy, I shall pass along this information to her and see what she says.

As for myself, I am still pondering the issue of "my" skull, which seems to have finally been put to rest. I have told people for two centuries that it was not my skull because here stand I, still alive and well, and living in Cyberspace as usual.

As for the poor sod whose skull it IS, I suppiose we will have to ask Papa Haydn's skull about that since they sat next to each other for some time and got to know each other very well. Alas, Papa H is now well and truly buried, and unavailable for comment. The one thing that is certain is that the bogus mozart skull was NOT that of P.D.Q. bach, who also sat next to papa H on the same shelf, and they most certainly did not get along. Who "Bogie" was, we shall never know.

Special Agent K.007


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Sworn to Defend and Protect the Unenlightened"

[robert newman]

Dear Special Agent K007,

There seems to be no doubt about it - the skull and those who are still on missions related to it are in a very different field from everyone else !

Regards