'Le Nozze di Figaro' and the 'Mozart' Violin Concertos

[robert newman]

The evidence (such as we have) has until now been assumed to support the view that Mozart is the true composer of 'Le Nozze di Figaro'. That view, now over 200 years old, can rightly be described as the 'traditional' one. And it's one you happen to agree with. To the best of my knowledge it has not been suggested that Mozart did NOT write this opera - until now, that is.

There are things about tradition, Frank, which only become apparent when the matter itself is suggested as being due to a different (not previously proposed) origin. In this particular case lack of evidence for Mozart/da Ponte having been commissioned, censors approving etc. etc. - such things, previously thought to be of little or no consequence suddenly become something of an issue - since these anomalies in the history of 'Figaro's' premiere are just what we might expect if the piece is NOT by Mozart/da Ponte. The very act of questioning tradition can makes us (I suggest) look anew at these previously 'unimportant' matters. And the theory of an alternative composer gains strength if it can be shown that the alternative focuses accurately on contexts within which this matter ('Figaro') first came about.

I honestly cannot help more in this request of yours for method.

Best regards

[Frank H]

Originally posted by robert newman:


I honestly cannot help more in this request of yours for method.

Dear Robert,

But I'm not requesting you for "method"!!!

What I am requesting from you, and I've lost count of the times I, and others, have asked for this, is the REAL SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE for your theories - the core, crucial evidence, without which no amount of petty inconsistencies in the "traditional" picture will add up to anything substantial.

If, however, you do produce this evidence, which you claim to have - IF you do produce this, then those inconsistencies will no longer seem petty, and you might actually start to win converts.

So, and I hope for the final time, the request is: stop prevaricating and SHOW US YOUR EVIDENCE!!!

Regards,

Frank

[This message has been edited by Frank H (edited 04-05-2006).]

[Cetto von Cronstorff]

Originally posted by robert newman:

(By the way, let me ask you a simiar question in return. Correct me if I am wrong but there is no record of Mozart being paid for 'Idomeneo' - does this persuade you that he was NOT its composer ?

This is not a similar question. There is of course a record that Mozart was paid in the account books of the Munich court. But maybe Mozart had to give part of the money to the real composer?

[SR]

Originally posted by Frank H:

Originally posted by robert newman:


I honestly cannot help more in this request of yours for method.

Dear Robert,

But I'm not requesting you for "method"!!!

What I am requesting from you, and I've lost count of the times I, and others, have asked for this, is the REAL SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE for your theories - the core, crucial evidence, without which no amount of petty inconsistencies in the "traditional" picture will add up to anything substantial.

If, however, you do produce this evidence, which you claim to have - IF you do produce this, then those inconsistencies will no longer seem petty, and you might actually start to win converts.

So, and I hope for the final time, the request is: stop prevaricating and SHOW US YOUR EVIDENCE!!!

Regards,

Frank

[This message has been edited by Frank H (edited 04-05-2006).]

Frank...

You won't ever see it, there is none. It surprises me that an intelligent gentleman such as yourself bothers to even attempt to debate him. Can't you see where all this leads ? Nowhere. He'll argue that established scholars are wrong. He'll argue that the debate technique is wrong. He'll try to force you to prove that established history is correct, and never offer anything but handfuls of dust thrown in the air when asked for his evidence.

Steve

[Selby A]

Originally posted by robert newman:
Dear Cetto von Cronstorff,

You ask why Mozart was paid for 'Le Nozze di Figaro' if he was not its true composer.

I know I've written at some length but if I'm not mistaken it has been indicated here that Joseph 2nd believed that Mozart WAS the true composer of that piece. This is why Mozart was paid.

(By the way, let me ask you a simiar question in return. Correct me if I am wrong but there is no record of Mozart being paid for 'Idomeneo' - does this persuade you that he was NOT its composer ?).

Best wishes


[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 04-05-2006).]

---------

But you see, Robert, Mozart was paid for Idemeneo. It was Leopold Mozart who pocketed the money to defray the expenses of the Paris journey. You will note references to this event in the letters
so aptly translated by Emily Anderson.
You need not worry about the letters being only in German.

A thought! Perhaps you should read the letters between father and son. It might help.

Selby A.

[robert newman]

Dear Agnes,

Please give me your exact source on this.


P.S. Which Paris journey ?


[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 04-06-2006).]

[robert newman]

You say there is a record of Mozart being paid for 'Idomeneo' in the account books ? I am not aware of any such record. There is certainly one of payment to the librettist.

RN

[robert newman]

Dear SR,

I would not waste my time trying to persuade you either. You can believe all sorts of things about 'Figaro' without a shred of evidence supporting them - as you already do. But that's different, of course ! THAT's OK.

[Selby A]

Originally posted by robert newman:
Dear Agnes,

Please give me your exact source on this.


P.S. Which Paris journey ?


[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 04-06-2006).]

----------

The exact source are Mozart letters to his father. Please see Emily Anderson's
"Letters of Mozart and his Family". Published by Macmillan, London 1966.

and

W.A. Bauer & Otto Deutsch : "Mozart Briefe
und Aufzeichnungen" , Barenreiter, Basel. 1962 - 1975.

Mozart undertook the journey to Paris in the company of his mother. He departed Salzburg on November 5, 1780.

Selby A.

[robert newman]

Dear Agnes,

I think you are confused. You wrote -

'Mozart was paid for 'Idomeneo'. It was
Leopold Mozart who pocketed the money to defray the expenses of the Paris journey. You will note references to this event in the letters so aptly translated by Emily Anderson'.

But that's wrong. The facts are as follows -

1. Mozart and his mother were in Paris in the year 1778. (She fell ill and died there on 3rd July in that same year if 1778).

2. The premiere of 'Idomeneo' was 29th January 1781 in Munich.

Thus, fully 2 1/2 years separate these two different things.

But you say Leopold Mozart pocketed the money from the writing of Idomeneo to pay for the Paris trip of 2 1/2 years previously !

a) I've asked for your specific reference to this occurring. You've not given me any specific date for Leopold supposedly pocketing this money for Mozart writing Idomeneo. When did it actually occur ? Date please ?

b) Was Mozart paid for writing Idomeneo or not ? If so, when ?

c) As you can see, the above timetable makes no sense at all.

[Selby A]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Dear Agnes,

I think you are confused. You wrote -

'Mozart was paid for 'Idomeneo'. It was
Leopold Mozart who pocketed the money to defray the expenses of the Paris journey. You will note references to this event in the letters so aptly translated by Emily Anderson'.

But that's wrong. The facts are as follows -

1. Mozart and his mother were in Paris in the year 1778. (She fell ill and died there on 3rd July in that same year if 1778).

2. The premiere of 'Idomeneo' was 29th January 1781 in Munich.

Thus, fully 2 1/2 years separate these two different things.

But you say Leopold Mozart pocketed the money from the writing of Idomeneo to pay for the Paris trip of 2 1/2 years previously !

a) I've asked for your specific reference to this occurring. You've not given me any specific date for Leopold supposedly pocketing this money for Mozart writing Idomeneo. When did it actually occur ? Date please ?

b) Was Mozart paid for writing Idomeneo or not ? If so, when ?

c) As you can see, the above timetable makes no sense at all.

---------------


Please do not misinterpret me.

Mozart and his mother left for Paris.

Mozart father took the money for Idemeneo to defray the expenses of this journey.

You asked me two different questions.

You wanted to know which trip to Paris I was referring to and I told.

You asked me exactly where you can find references to Mozart's letters to his father
regarding the money paid for Idemeneo and I told you where two look.

The two are only connected in the matter of money which Leopold collected. If you would just read more and imagine less, you would know more. You would also not insult me by accusing me of not understanding your questions.

Also, as a Mozart writer and researcher for
the past twenty years and an author of many published articles on Mozart and the documentary biography of his wife, Constanze, I happen to be offended by your total disregard of research by Mozart scholars.

So please do not insult me any further for suggesting that I did not anderstand your questions which I answered in the most polite manner.

This is my last letter to you, Robert. I have personally had enough of all this nonsense.

Selby A.

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Dear SR,

I would not waste my time trying to persuade you either. You can believe all sorts of things about 'Figaro' without a shred of evidence supporting them - as you already do. But that's different, of course ! THAT's OK.

There is plenty of evidence that Mozart wrote Figaro, none that Kraus did, yet for you THAT is ok!

Incidentally we have a receipt of payment of salary for Johann Beethoven on 16th sept 1783 - as far as I am aware it is the only one we have, so applying your logic we can deduce he was only paid once.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 04-06-2006).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
There is plenty of evidence that Mozart wrote Figaro, none that Kraus did, yet for you THAT is ok!

Is there anything particularly unmozartian-sounding in the music to you Peter? Too much discussion about circumstantial evidence here and nothing about the music itself, which should be the best evidence of all.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 04-06-2006).]

[robert newman]

Dear Agnes,

You have yet to provide this board with any real reference.

You make me laugh. Idomeneo premiered in Munich virtually 2 1/2 years after Mozart's mother had died. That's a simple fact that you should have realised.

I've asked for the exact/the specific source for your claim that Leopold in 1781 pocketed Mozart's payment for writing Idomeneo - this to 'defray the costs' of Mozart and his mother's travel 2 1/2 years earlier to Paris - a claim you have certainly not substantiated with any reference despite multiple requests.

Nor have you told us when Mozart was paid for Idomeneo by Munich, if at all. Did the money go directly to Leopold ? What exactly are you saying ? This is Agnes Selby pulling the wool over the eyes, yet again.

Please give us specific dates/references in your reply since you have a habit of talking this sort of nonsense as though you know your subject very well. You do not.

I say you are giving us rubbish here and cannot suoport your statements on all these points. (Something that you have a tendency to do). Let us see if you are willing to prove the opposite. More insults not necessary. References please !

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Is there anything particularly unmozartian-sounding in the music to you Peter? Too much discussion about circumstantial evidence here and nothing about the music itself, which should be the best evidence of all.

Quite so Rod and another poster also alluded to this - to my ears (though I am far from being an authority) the music is 'Mozartean' through and through. From what I have heard of Kraus (fine though it is) it is not on this level and it doesn't 'sound' the same. As Haydn is quite distinct from Mozart so is Kraus. I have the same impression with the Beethoven cantatas Robert disputes, to me as Brahms observed they are Beethoven!


------------------
'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 04-06-2006).]