Beethoven's Home Life

[robert newman]

I am no expert on the life and character of Beethoven and know that deeper insights in to this great man come after years of appreciating his works and the views of those who knew him.

But I have read that a series of housekeepers came and went and were unhappy about his generally scruffy care of himself and his belongings. I've read too of visitors who were amazed at the disorderly state of his apartment, etc. etc.

I would simply like to ask opinions on the following question -

Q. As a student of Beethoven what do you think he himself would have replied to those who criticised these untidy characteristics of his personal self ???

[Rod]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Q. As a student of Beethoven what do you think he himself would have replied to those who criticised these untidy characteristics of his personal self ???

I'd duck in case he thew his chamber pot at me.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[robert newman]

Haha ! You're probably right. But whether he excused this (in, say, moments when the housemaid was leaving his employment) or if he did not, intrigues me. (I speak as someone who is less than perfect in this respect myself).

[Gurn Blanston]

I think that he would say that it was insignificant compared to what he was really thinking about at any particular time. I would agree with him.
Cheers,
Gurn

[sjwenger]

I'd think it was his housekeeper's job to keep the house clean. However, my guess is, he told the housekeeper not to touch his papers, not to disturb his working space, etc., and his papers and his working spaces were all over the house. I understand he drew music wherever the muse struck him, including on the tablecloths. Hard to keep house when you can't touch the tablecloths, hard to dump the chamberpot when you're not allowed to tiptoe into the room where he's using it while he composes . . .

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[Peter]

Originally posted by sjwenger:
I'd think it was his housekeeper's job to keep the house clean.

I certainly wouldn't have liked the job!

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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:

I am no expert on the life and character of Beethoven and know that deeper insights in to this great man come after years of appreciating his works and the views of those who knew him.

But I have read that a series of housekeepers came and went and were unhappy about his generally scruffy care of himself and his belongings. I've read too of visitors who were amazed at the disorderly state of his apartment, etc. etc.

I would simply like to ask opinions on the following question -

Q. As a student of Beethoven what do you think he himself would have replied to those who criticised these untidy characteristics of his personal self ???

I think in our less formal age he would have fitted in much better - who cares what you dress like these days? In his early days in Vienna, Beethoven was quite dapper - only when the frustrations of life set in did he not bother with the outward, this was particularly true of the last years and is reflected in the inward, almost isolated world of the late works.

I doubt he cared what anyone thought, he probably didn't even notice the mess!

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 04-10-2006).]

[Anthina]

Originally posted by Peter:

I doubt he cared what anyone thought, he probably didn't even notice the mess!

Probably not, at least not in his later days. Obviously Beethoven's appearance was a reflection of his current mood. I don't remember who said it but that person recalled when walking through his flat there were clothes lying everywhere, his bed a mess, papers all over the place and him in the middle, still wearing his dressing gown at 2pm, composing. I really don't know how you are going to clean up as a housekeeper if you are not allowed to touch a thing. Oh and he was suspicious of his housekeepers, always thought they are stealing things..
But Beethoven insisted HE always signed them off (one after 7 years he pretends).
And I don't think it was easy to find the right housekeeper for him. His expectations were high, in 1816 he wrote to Nikolaus Zmeskall how his new housekeeper should be like:
needs a certificate issued by the police confirming no criminal record, should be a married tailor or very good at tailoring, best of with no children, the current job is only for the husband but there might be a chance his wife will be employed aswell if he's doing a good job...

However it's funny to think even in his mess he's mulling over things like the colour of his walls, if he should paint them white or paper them, which model of chests of drawers he should buy etc. (written dialogue with Tobias Haslinger, around 1817). And there's a notice where he's written down how a coffee machine works, that new invention.

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*~Ja, was haben's da scho wieder gmacht, Beethoven?~*

[This message has been edited by Anthina (edited 04-10-2006).]

[This message has been edited by Anthina (edited 04-10-2006).]

[robert newman]

And in Beethoven's day almost anyone could turn up at your home. All they needed was a calling card. Admirers from London, non-musical people, etc. etc. Enough to test the patience of anyone. I suppose his own deafness made these intrusions even more difficult - since they would suddenly be before him, almost unannounced. He would probably have tried to have house rules on such visits but these would tend to become unworkable. Meeting Beethoven becomes a more difficult thing. It seems to me that he had little embarrasment in meeting musical friends/visitors but would have been far more touchy about speculative visitors.

I think his creative bursts of energy would have made him very touchy about any criticism of his apartment or his handwriting etc etc

[DavidO]

Originally posted by robert newman:

And in Beethoven's day almost anyone could turn up at your home. All they needed was a calling card. Admirers from London, non-musical people, etc. etc. Enough to test the patience of anyone. I suppose his own deafness made these intrusions even more difficult - since they would suddenly be before him, almost unannounced.

True. He must have been shocked many a time--whirled around & there was somebody.

However, he also seems to have had some sort of sixth sense when someone was at his door, not even knocking, perhaps, but just listening to him play the piano. There were several occasions discussed by friends & business associates when someone was outside his door (generally in a connecting hall of some sort) listening to him play, & all of a sudden he swings his door open, as if he wanted to catch a culprit in the act of eavesdropping. This, even in his late years. Maybe some of these eavesdroppers clunked their boots on the wooden floorboards, the low frequency of which might have alerted him, at least to an unidentifiable sound.

[robert newman]

Thank you for all this - it's all quite remarkable.

[Michael]

One of my very favourite Beethoven stories is that of the visit of the composer Ignaz Moscheles in 1814. Beethoven had agreed to let him make a piano arrangement of "Fidelio" and Moscheles called one day and brought his brother with him. Moscheles warned his brother that Beethoven was "touchy" about visitors and that perhaps he had better wait in the passage below.
Moscheles spent about half an hour with Beethoven and then told him that he had to leave due to a prior engagement and also that his brother was waiting downstairs.
"Is it possible," said Beethoven, "that you think I am such a bear as not to receive your brother with kindness?" whereupon Beethoven ran from the room, rushed down the stairs and without saying a word, grabbed the poor fellow by the arm and dragged him upstairs as if he were a criminal.
He then treated the brother as an honoured guest, behaved in the most kind and obliging manner towards him, offering him wine and other refreshments.
I wonder, though, did he ever recover from the shock of Beethoven bursting down the stairs and grabbing him?

Michael